Sauerbraten rated worst Open Source FPS?

by SanHolo on 12/30/2007 22:54, 131 messages, last message: 11/25/2017 23:24, 119354 views, last view: 05/20/2024 13:05, closed on 11/25/2017 23:38

There's an article over at Slashdot that links a report of linux-gamers.net which compared 7 open source shooters. Since the site is slashdotted ATM, all I can get from /. is the ranking: (best to worst) Warsow, Tremulous, World of Padman, Nexuiz, Alien Arena, OpenArena, and Sauerbraten.

I hope the site will be back online soon to see their arguments... :P

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#27: ..

by Acord on 01/01/2008 23:26

We do have double jumps implemented already, kind of like a short forward boost. You have to flick your mouse in the direction you want to go.

I had thought about wall jumps in BF, but unless a map is totally enclosed, it's simply going to break it.

Trick movement is fun in some ways, but BF is going to be a lot more about crowd control and team communication. That being said, the controls are a little floaty if you don't know what you're doing. IE, jumping, boosting back to the ground, turning around and running backwards while ripping off a clip that adds to your momentum - but if you don't experiment, it's hard to find it.

And I feel like the goal is to have these subtleties, but not to let them destroy the gameplay or to make it too MP oriented. At the same time, I'm a big believer in *not* handing all the fun tricks to the player on a silver platter, and not *requiring* them to be mastered to progress through the game.

I feel like it's more rewarding to put something good like a sniper rifle or a rocket launcher out of reach using normal methods.

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#28: ..

by oskar669 on 01/02/2008 03:48

I agree with the article... and the author. I've been watching cube/sauerbraten for about 2 years now, and the gameplay quite simply needs to be refined. I get a headache after about 10 minutes, it's so damn fast... but it's not only the speed. The movements are very hectic, and It doesn't feel very dynamic.
But the graphics are absolutely amazing, and the map editor rocks. No wonder 10% of the people on the servers work on maps!
I don't care much for Warsow, I think it's too complex, but it has a very smooth gameplay, that I can even enjoy while I'm getting completely owned.

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#29: Gamespeed

by steve_e on 01/02/2008 03:51

Can be slowed down - I tend to set it to 80 for my maps so that there is more control.

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#30: Re: Gamespeed

by JadeMatrix on 01/02/2008 03:59, refers to #29

But not in mp. Plus, it isn't just gamespeed, but the style of gameplay that he's talking about.

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#31: Re: ..

by SanHolo on 01/02/2008 10:49, refers to #15

Compare Assault Cube to Urban Terror and I bet you'd go with Urban Terror. ;)

World of Padman is actually fun, but as the article points out, it's not that competitive.

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#32: Fast Sauerbraten...

by kldsjf lconordfjdskl on 01/02/2008 15:29

I like insanely fast games, although, a lot don't, but I think that Sauerbraten's gamespeed should be *increased* a tiny bit, and a little added to jumping, but to be moving at a decent speed, you have to wall jump, or do some other kind of jump/running.


I don't mean run faster, or iterally increasing the gamespeed, I mean it will _feel_ faster.

So it would be like more than Cube 1, but less than Sauerbraten is now, but you could get to fast speed by trickjumping, or running a special way. I also think the speed should be limited so that one can not go any faster than they can now, because sometimes in warsow, it seems *WAY* too fast, like insane.

just my two cents

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#33: hmmmm

by kldsjf lconordfjdskl on 01/02/2008 15:30

It seems that my post there kind of contradicted itself, at first I like fast games, then I don't :P Hey, it's early...

the first section should only read " you have to wall jump, or do some other kind of jump/running." :)

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#34: hmm

by Aardappel_ on 01/02/2008 17:47

It is quite amazing how people's expectations on what an FPS _should_ look like colors their evaluation of sauerbraten. It seems that a large part of this "its a techdemo" thinking comes from the fact that you are thrown into a map on load with no menu.

I originally liked that idea when I started Cube because really, when you load up a project like this for the first time, the vast majority of people first want to see "what its like". I also greatly dislike "modes" in program design, and having the engine run in a seperate menu mode always seemed to me as archaic.

probably popping up the menu on load will require all of 1 line of code or so. I have always been against modifying the behaviour of sauer for the benefit of people who have a hard time adapting to anything new, but in this case I am thinking, if we can change a few lines of code and make sauer go from tech demo to game for confused reviewers, that may be worth it.

Maybe there's other small things too. So here goes: what do people think are the top things that make sauer look "unfinished"?

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#35: Re: hmm

by tentus_ on 01/02/2008 18:32, refers to #34

I'd say one of the first things we need to do is implement some special behavior for the scroll wheel in Eisenstern. Having an unknown command pop up every time you try to scroll is distracting and looks very unfinished. I would recommend binding it to change the fov (seeing how most of Eisenstern is probably going to be in third person).

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#36: Re: hmm

by steve_e on 01/02/2008 18:33, refers to #34

Maybe a load screen - not like loading the default map, but a load screen with the Sauerbraten logo on it like they have with Adobe products etc. The thing is tho' that photoshop takes ages to load and sauer takes hardly any time at all.

It is really about branding the product, at the moment there is nothing to say, when starting up the game, that your are in Sauerbraten.

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#37: Re: hmm

by steve_e on 01/02/2008 18:51, refers to #36

Actually there is the sauer logo - I keep looking at the map image rather than the logo as that is centered whereas the logo is at the top of the screen - and it loads so quickly that you don't really get a 'feel' for it.

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#38: Re: hmm

by MovingTarget on 01/02/2008 18:57, refers to #34

A few ideas: Obviously some kind of loading screen, should be able to be disabled, e.g. a $startupscreen variable; most FPS's I've played don't have music when you are fighting, just in the intermission; and reloading with decent animations (AC and BF already have reloading implemented, but good animations should be present, and not the weapon just going out of sighting and coming back (AC)). That's all I could think of right now.

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#39: Re: hmm

by SanHolo on 01/02/2008 19:30, refers to #34

I'd copy that, I like the fact that you are thrown right into a map without a menu. That's sauerbraten and that should stay.

The "techdemo feel" for me stems from other aspects. For me it's the scoretab especially. As a gamer, I'm not interested in ping _and_ packetjump, but in kills, deaths, maybe bases captured or damage done. Having the game-mode, the server-name/ip and the map-name displayed would also be helpful.

And the player model. I know it's difficult to get game content, and with IronSnout and new weapons on the way it looks promising, but it's not done. Snout looks like he's missing his textures, the aim of some weapons is off, sounds are yet to be re-done.
To be able to choose from a few player models would be very nice, to choose another crosshair via menu and set its size also is a tiny but important detail IMHO. Maybe even a possibility to set the handedness of the player. It's like the whole settings for the player are missing (ok, there's the name, but that's it).

During the two years I've been following sauerbratens evolution, a lot has been achieved and implemented, but it's in the details where you see/feel that it's unfinished. I'm not saying this is bad, oh no, keep pushing please, but like the reviewer pointed out, due to these details sauerbraten has that "techdemo feel".

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#40: ..

by RealNitro on 01/02/2008 21:31

Graphical:
- Playermodel (seems to have _finally_ changed now?)
- No decals

Other:
- No start GUI (I'm used to that now though)
- More 'dynamic' maps in multiplayer... (elevators)
- No bots

I play Nexuiz now, as sauerbraten doens't run fast enough on my Intel MacBook while Nexuiz does (most of the time).

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#41: Re: hmm

by ZuurKool on 01/02/2008 21:50, refers to #36

One of the things i really like about sauer is the short time it takes to start up. It takes me about 15 seconds to load game and get on a server. I wouldn't slow this down on purpose.

An idea: I played steve_e's new SP map today (nice map btw). I can imagine using this trigger-storyline technique to make a welcome/tutorial map. The player is introduced to the game with a welcome-text at map-load. While walking through the map for the first time certain objects could trigger some basic instructions on how to play, edit, menu, teamskins(!) etc.
Maybe this could welcome a first-time player and guide him through his first insecure minutes ;)

For more experienced players it would be possible to turn this function off ofcourse.

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#42: Re: hmm

by steve_e on 01/02/2008 22:13, refers to #41

"I played steve_e's new SP map today (nice map btw)."

Thanks! :)

Another thing that makes the engine seem a little 'rough' is the documentation - with competition in the open source market to get the punters in I have noticed an increase in the quality of documentation as without it is difficult to get people to use your product. The thing with Sauer is that it is so easy to get into initially, but some things are still rather esoteric, and it is those things that are the bells & whistles of the development possibilities... Also lack of consistency with how colours are defined: RGB for some values, hex for others...

But of course, none of this is possible without someone actually rolling up their sleeves and making it happen in their spare time, which would be the hardest aspect of any polishing and improving.

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#43: Re: ..

by SheeEttin on 01/03/2008 00:13, refers to #16

Eh, what the heck. On to the bandwagon!

OpenArena - Haven't played it.
Alien Arena - Played it, didn't like the movement. Was too confusing.
Nexuiz - Couldn't get it working.
Padman - Doesn't look particularly interesting.
Tremulous - Never heard of it.
Warsow - Tried it, hated the art and gameplay.
Sauerbraten - Love it!

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#44: Re: hmm

by Aardappel_ on 01/03/2008 01:00, refers to #35

well, eisenstern is not meant to be polished at this stage.. more on that later. It is the fps that should make a better impression.

I am not sure on the loading screen. It clearly has a loading screen already, with progress bars, logo, and map screenie, not sure what more we can do there. Certainly artificially making it longer would be the dumbest thing ever. Having a logo before it goes into fullscreen... that takes all of 1 second.

As for anything relating to art or content... yup, there's nothing much we can do there easily. I am looking more for code related tweaks.

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#45: Re: hmm

by steve_e on 01/03/2008 01:39, refers to #44

I certainly wasn't suggesting making the loading artificially longer - I guess my point is with a program like photoshop it takes so damn long to load there has to be a fancy screen with fine print etc.

I think it is the layout and presentation of Sauer's loading screen - it hasn't got a big "look at me" factor about it - it is very minimalist, which I guess reflects the nature of a new map environment, but it is too minimalist IMHO.

I think the logo is great - it is strong and I love the orange and black. The Sauerbraten website also looks good even though it is reasonable minimalist in its design too, but it works as there is colour and variety, plus some text which might look like it would be interesting to read...

But, when loading Sauer, the focal point tends to be the map screen shot and then you notice the logo up the top. Then it loads and you are in the game. In that time, maybe a couple of seconds, it is not a strong statement that is being made.

One thing I learnt many years ago with design is that it is all about the presentation: an average idea presented very well will gain far more interest (and generally be accepted) than a great idea presented in an average manner.

So, it is that initial impression - a screen that loads quickly, but leaves that "I want to see that again" impression. Afterall, the demo maps are pretty polished examples however the loading screen doesn't really reflect the quality of the overall package.

Sorry for the rant ;)

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#46: Splash Screen

by carotennaro on 01/03/2008 03:04

@Aardappel

I think steve_e is referring to a "splash screen" more than a "loading screen". A splash screen is a fullscreen image, usually with a tech feel, with the game title on top in a fancy 3D style, a menu with options (something similar to the menu that appears when pressing "ESC" but less simplistic) and a background music, that appears after the game is loaded.

Here's a bare example of what I'm talking about: http://tinyurl.com/2ft4ya (the first image that I've found through Google).

Although I'm aware that the most of the wonted players of Sauer would find it redundant, it would, as opposite, help new players feeling "at home", with a friendly interface giving them a chance to customize the game settings *before* playing, rather than being forwarded in a 3D environment (metl4) without a "presentation", that, in terms of "corporate identity" would play a significant role, as effectively pointed out by steve_e.

What I meant, is that it would take a little step to give Sauer a more defined identity by adhering to certain standards (something that many Open Source softwares lack of, see the intricate, painful interface of "the Gimp", compared with the simple, and intuitive one of Photoshop). In this case, what you miss is just a start screen, because the quality of the game already stands out, IMHO.

I know that the main problem is the lack of volunteers, but on this case, just a fullscreen image with a "portrait" of Ironsnout, with graphics on the same style of the excellent built-in menus, would work.

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