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sauerbraten goal oriented team player mode

by Aardappel_ on 03/13/2006 07:46, 43 messages, last message: 03/18/2006 14:51, 9066 views, last view: 05/04/2024 13:12

Below is the simple specs for a teamplay mode that eihrul may be adding. He could use a model, btw... makke? tentus?

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potential teamplay mode: similar to "battlefield":

"bases" are placed thruout the map

a base can be in 2 states: captured or neutral. When captured, it is
captured by a certain team. This is shown
by the texture its rendered with (red means enemy captured, blue means
your team, grey means neutral). The model can be a flag, or whatever.

a neutral base can be converted to your team by standing next to
it for N seconds (N = 10 or so) within a certain radius. Multiple players speed up
the process proportionally. The time accumulated to N is counted by the server,
and reset to 0 immediately once all players leave the radius.

a base of the enemy color can be converted to neutral in exactly the same way.
(so often it is a 2 step process to take over a base).

at the spawn of a map, all bases are neutral, and all players spawn at normal player spawns,
and try to capture whatever they can. basis are captured, players will
spawn at whichever of their bases is closest to an enemy base.

if a player dies, they wait M seconds before they can respawn again (M = 20 or so).
if you have no bases left (the enemy has captured yours, or at least made em neutral)
you can't spawn at all and have to wait for remaining players to recapture a base.
if all bases are gone and all players dead, your team loses and the match is over.

Alternatively, if this doesn't happen, at the timelimit the team that wins is the team
that has held the most bases for the most amount of time (1 point per X seconds for every
base in your color).

No points are awarded for kills or self-deaths.

When you spawn, you are given a certain amount of ammo for randomly 2 weapons out of the
5 main ones, + pistol ammo. You will not be able to get more ammo unless it is placed in
the map, or if given to you by another player. Any other player can replenish your ammo
of types of ammo he doesn't have. I.e. if you have RL/MG and he has GL/MG, you can replenish
his GL ammo, and he can give you RL ammo.

A simple HUD shows bases relative to your current position in red or blue (can be a sphere with
arrows pointing outwards for faraway bases).

There may be additional powerups needed, to emulate the functionality of vehicles in BF,
but maybe without its already good enough.

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#24: Oh, and I have to agree with other posters

by Pxtl on 03/14/2006 21:08

Oh, I agree about the victory condition - I'd go for straight DOM-style scoring - no "elimination" concept, just "bases per second" to gather points. I'd include a baseless zone (either the periphery or the middle or something) to spawn all the players who control no bases - just spawn players who arrived at the baseless zone with crappy gear - zero armour, 50 health, pistol only. Then they get a chance to make a comeback if they didnt' focus on defense.

"respawn delay" just annoys people. The only game I've ever seen that gets away with it is UT's Assault, where the respawn delay is cumulative for the whole team - if you're the first to die in a while, you come back in immediately, but if your whole team is wiped out then you all have to wait until your cumulative respawn debt is paid off (can be up to 10 seconds) and then you all spawn in at once. Nicely encourages mass-kills.

There are many ways around respawn delay that are similar (but equally annoying) such as forcing fresh players to fetch weapons (that may be on a limited spawn-clock) before they are useful.

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#25: Further thoughts.

by Pxtl on 03/14/2006 21:13

WOw, I'm really chatspamming today. Another possible problem: spawn at closest base to enemies means that you simply can rush to a different base. And what if there are three teams? Which "enemy base" that is close do you spawn near?

Perhaps to-base teleporters could be a map object. A teleporter with a base as it's target, but you can only use it if it's target is under your team's control. Thus, you can litter base-teleporters of the adjascent bases within the area around each flag, allowing players to quickly move within their domain. The base-teleporter is conceptually simple, the problem would be informatively showing "this telporter goes to that base".

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#26: Re: Vehicle ideas

by Aardappel_ on 03/15/2006 01:48, refers to #23

yup, something along those lines I was thinking... but lets first see how the base gameplay works out, and wether we'll get BF scale maps that require faster movement.

The spawn delay is essential... it helps give whoever killed you an advantage in capturing, otherwise the game becomes a constant flood of spawning players.

I wouldn't mind standard domination rules, the big problem that unlike domination, this is meant to have bit more of a front/defense style play, which is what all the complicated spawn rules are for. If players that don't have ANY base would just spawn randomly, then it would actually be an advantage to not capture the last base and just keep them pinned down.

Maybe there should be spawns that are not within a bases' radius that are for baseless people?

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#27: Re: Vehicle ideas

by Pxtl on 03/15/2006 02:26, refers to #26

The trick is that _any_ damage to your control of the base renders it unspawnable for 10 seconds, regardless of how severe the damage is or whether you repair it.

In UT2k4 Onslaught, all it takes is a single shot on the power node (or in this case, just a quick touch of the flag) to make it "unspawnable". The "unspawnable" setting lasts for 10 seconds, or until the next shot hits _not_ until the power node is repaired.

So, in this case, you'd have instant respawning until one player makes it close enough to touch the flag - then even if he made a negligible "claim" on the flag, it is unspawnable until ten seconds pass.

I should review how UT2k4 ONS works - it may be of some inspiration, as it sounds similar.

1) The map is a web of connected nodes, connecting one core to the other.
2) you can only claim nodes that are attached to nodes you own.
3) Enemy nodes must be attacked the old fashioned way, through damage. Once the enemy node is destroyed, you can start claiming it (touch it to start, and then use the link-gun to charge it up to 100%). It is officially "yours" (ie you can spawn at it) once it is at 100%.
4) Players may repair their own nodes in the same manner as they claimed it in the first place - with a link gun.
5) Nodes that have been damaged recently are unspawnable. The actual "health" of the node is irrelevant to it's spawnability.

I think that the approach of "single ownership, but damageable" might be better for your game, rather than the "mixed ownership" you probably have in mind. Basically, players must destroy the previous ownership of a base before erecting their own claim. The first act of damage sets the base into "unspawnable" mode.

Essentially, a base is in one of three states:
(1) Neutral.
(2) Claimed.
(3) Claimed, but beseiged.

Once you've "claimed" a node, you don't actually "lose" it until your claim has been destroyed - even if your claim is only at 1% (by other players, possibly from multiple teams, standing on it). However, the presence of other players sets the node into "besieged" mode, in which it can't be spawned at. If you can get them off for 10 seconds straight, you can spawn there.

Really, the UT2k4 demo is available for free and includes ONS, you should try it. It's remarkably well-thought-out. A little complicated, but it works well for both allowing players to spawn instantly, but prevent the problem you outlined.

And yes, having baseless "you suck" spawns is a good thought. If you want it to be a punishment for losing your base, you could make it nasty - something like "start at 50% health, no armour, pistol only" so that comeback is a hard battle to win.

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#28: Thoughts

by pushplay on 03/15/2006 02:56

Winning is all well and good, but attacking is inherently more fun than defending. Especially if you're on the team with the upperhand, defending will get outright boring. So I'm going to go attack and either someone else takes the burden of defending (and from experience in ctf few do), or no one defends and we lose, or I do and get frustrated and leave.

Cube attained popularity for being fast paced, and easy to jump right into a game. In a time of slower-paced shooters I don't want to see that go. So with that in mind I would abandon the strategic element of having multiple capturable bases in favour of the pipeline idea. It will force the action to be focused on a specific area of a map which, will be more satisfying.

Long time-out's are bad enough in slow strategic games, it's only going to be worse in a faster paced game. Obviously you can't have people spawning immediatly. This might be radical, but I'm thinking about a second area, walled off from the first, where 'dead' players spawn. They would be given ammo and health inversely propertional to how well their team is doing and would have to earn a kill to spawn back in the main arena. It requires some extra effort on the mapper's part, but give it some thought.

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#29: Re: Thoughts

by Pxtl on 03/15/2006 04:37, refers to #28

If you want a more Cube-esque n-team team game, just make Dom1 (AKA King Of The Hill). Everyone brawling over a single point of the map. Attacking and defending are practically the same theing - it's all about control. The trick to good Dom1 mapping is to make lots of dense weapon caches and place the "control" point in a barren location - in that way, that there is strategy to controlling the weapon caches, rather than simply dominating the center point.

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#30: Re: Vehicle ideas

by asdff on 03/15/2006 05:17, refers to #26

sure.
anything that means less downtime should be top priority imo.

pxtl and pushplay have some good ideas with this.

the concept of respawing as a weak player and taking time to acquire decent weapons/health and other advantages should be used instead of
DEAD time where you can't play.
even playing at a severe disadvantage is WORLDS better than not being able to play.

maybe the places they spawn at could also have like a little gauntlet or obstacle course to run thru to make getting make take longer. maybe it should put them in very vulnerable spots where they would probably die again quickly.
still dying quickly or feeling a little helpless is infinitely more fun than NOT DOING ANYTHING.

maybe they have debuffs.
NEGATIVE powerups.
they move slower, or cant jump, or their health starts normal but counts down to 0 for awhile so they have to look for health.
or their weapons do half damage, or fire slower, or become more inaccurate.
theres alot more creative solutions i think, than having dead time.

i like the idea of earning power back via kills, but then maybe they can regain their power back too quickly?

i just think the most important thing is to be constantly playing, and mete out DIFFerent forms of punishment or setbacks to their teams progress when they die.

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#31: Re: Vehicle ideas

by Aardappel_ on 03/15/2006 12:42, refers to #27

I am familiar with ut2k4 onslaught, and always thought that it was not as good as battlefield in many details.

The "you can't spawn on an own node while its being taken over" is also part of our design.

I don't like the linked nature of the bases. I can see what pushplay means by not wanting to defend, but onslaught is a bit TOO simple in that it just ends up as being one big pile-up wherever the current frontline is. Respawning immediately does not help here. battlefield matches tend to be a bit more dynamic.

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#32: ..

by makkE on 03/15/2006 15:10

I myself have no problem defending.
It should be a team efford, so the team that´s willing to sacrifice their urges to storm for the needs of the team should win.
And no individual points being rewarded is a good idea to emphasise teamplay.

20 secs might be a bit too much, but 10 would be okay for me. That´s not too long. If you die you have to wait - just makes you try to die less. And gives you time to think bout what you done wrong and what would be the best tactic for your next moves.

I think it´d be a bad idea to have players spawn immediately but with disadvantages. How would a newbie be able to get into it if he dies all the time anyways, but is even punished for that? That´d be more frustrating imho than having to wait a little.

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#33: Re: ..

by asdff on 03/15/2006 16:00, refers to #32

if a "noobie" hates being new and unskilled, hes is gonna hate it far more when he is dead more than alive.


the concept of a "noobie" OR ANYONE preferring to total incapacitation to partial incapacitation is just ridiculous.

make the powerdown or death side effects only last 20 seconds if you are worried that they would be hobbled permanently or something.

powerups generally only last for a little while anyways........

your whole line thinking of bringing up noobies being frustrated with having options OTHER than a waiting period is just crazy.

waiting is WORSE on noobies more than anyone. they need some practice in the game obviously, so prevent them from practicing?

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#34: Bf mode

by Tybalt on 03/15/2006 16:39

Bf is great but you need two big team or some bots...
The fun come mostly from the differents vehicules (in my opinion), that's why i like the pxtl's ideas ...

For the defending problem why not make the base defending itself ?

Wait and kill is better than spawn and get kill quickly, i think ;)

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#35: Re: Vehicle ideas

by Pxtl on 03/15/2006 16:47, refers to #31

Oh, I agree that the "web" feature should be thrown out. I just meant the approach to claiming and dead time.

Here's how I understand how your system works (from what I read). Say team A owns base Alpha. Team A can spawn at Alpha. Team B makes a rush against Alpha, and has to fight through hordes of guys because of respawning, until a single man (say Bob) from B touches the Alpha flag - then B owns 0.1% of alpha, and A owns 99.9%. At this point, Alpha is "mixed" and thus unspawnable. A and B must both rush from other bases to claim Alpha.

This means that "delay-respawn" isn't really necessary, as all it takes is for one fast little guy to touch the base to turn a slaughter into a battle.

Now, there is still the problem that Adam (from A) can kill Bob and take his place, returning A's control of Alpha to 100% in less than a second. Then the cycle of endless respawn defense returns. This is why the UT2k4 "N second rule" exists. Once a node is damaged, the battle changes - the defenders must hold it for N seconds uninterrupted before their claim of it is spawnable again.

Now, the other problem is that your game is N-team on each Base - you can have a node owned 30% by, A, 60% by B, and 10% by C. This is somewhat confusing. In UT's system, you have to first destroy A's posession of the base Alpha before you can start building posession for B. Thus, teams can gang-up to destroy posession, but then must compete to claim it. Imho, this system is better.

The remaining features from UT, I agree, are inappropriate for the game you describe.

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#36: ..

by makkE on 03/15/2006 17:58

Ok, so my opinion and line of thinking is ridiculous and crazy.
Got that :D Intresting way of discussing something.






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#37: Re: Vehicle ideas

by Aardappel_ on 03/15/2006 19:57, refers to #35

pxtl, its slightly simpler than that. If you touch an enemy flag, but then get killed before you neutralize it, the flag will revert back to enemy hands entirely.

so to capture an enemy frontline base, you kill everyone present, then neutralize (because of the spawn delay, and the fact that they now have to come from a further base, this can likely happen).

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#38: Re: Vehicle ideas

by pushplay on 03/16/2006 02:31, refers to #31

Yeah, you're right about the pile-on. If there's a happy medium that would be nice but otherwise I'll prefer the multi-front version.

Performance based respawning is just one way to give people something to do as soon as they die. Another would be having a ghost world, where you run around the map unable to affect the action but viewing it in a semi-translucent state. Maybe you could even see and kill other people in the ghost world for some purpose or just for fun.

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#39: ..

by Passa on 03/17/2006 10:25

Nice idea pushplay, maybe make it that 'ghosts' can frag eachother while they wait to respawn in another enclosed section of the map defined by a new version playerstart entity, deadplayerstart or something.

One problem, does Sauerbraten have enough players to support a gametype such as this? Even the amount of players on Cube is not high enough to really try out this gamemode, a Cube server will reach its peak at 6-8 players. So even in the future, Sauerbraten might not have a large enough player base. This would mean there would need to be 'bots' implemented so servers can add enough bots to fill the server.

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#40: lan party!

by Sparr on 03/17/2006 12:20

take sauer or cube to a lan party, get a 8-16 person game going with 1ms pings

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#41: Re: lan party!

by Passa on 03/17/2006 12:54, refers to #40

hmm, I cant even get 2 of my friends into cube, let alone 16..

maybe make this gamemode friendly to small amounts of players too (2v2).

hopefully mappers will follow suit and make small maps for this gamemode.

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#42: Re: lan party!

by Kalyton Fenech on 03/17/2006 19:26, refers to #41

Chatting on 4ums is fun but make it less educational ;)

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#43: Re: Vehicle ideas

by asdff on 03/18/2006 14:51, refers to #38

pushplay,

interesting ghost dimension gameplay idea.

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