What is Cube exactly ?

by Keemo on 12/05/2005 15:34, 28 messages, last message: 12/15/2005 19:23, 7475 views, last view: 05/04/2024 19:13

Hey Guys , Cube looks like a pretty impressive fps maker , but is that what it really is ? And is it any use if you dont code anything ? I currently know a language quite similar to BASIC , but not a clue about C or C++ , so my questions are these :-

What's Cube (features and uses)

Can I make use of it without coding in C/C++ ?

Keemo1000@hotmail.com

   Board Index   

#9: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 12/06/2005 08:44, refers to #7

I don't think you can compare sauer to simcity. I have already given people tremendous power to create their own worlds in a way that is much more accessible than traditional level design, all without a single line of code. The power of what you can do with this will only extend as we move from the FPS to the RPG.

Maybe people should first make use of that, and learn to build worlds, before wanting to create "their own FPS" without even knowing how to tie their shoelaces.

reply to this message

#10: Re: ..

by Televangelist on 12/06/2005 09:33, refers to #9

That's a fair point; I do see the flaw now in the comparison. And you are definitely extending the toolset available to Joe and Jane Schmoe. I'm just hoping that you won't decide to not go as far in the 'ease of use' department as you otherwise might normally, because of what a few jerks might do with it.

The challenge of how to 'socialize' newcomers into content-creation systems is an endless one on the internet, it seems. I don't think anyone has any really great answers yet, except to tell them "Read the FAQ" and hope they listen.


Maybe I'm just biased because C++ traumatized me at a young age. :P I started coding in QBasic at age 5 or so, took to it perfectly well, but when I started C++ a couple years later it was another beast entirely. Frustrated me so bad I'd end up soaking the C++ manual with tears, with the book eventually becoming a giant monster in my nightmares.

But that's neither here nor there, heh. I'm just fearful of anything that influences me to finally try learning C again, a decade later. ;P

reply to this message

#11: Personally

by Pxtl on 12/06/2005 19:36

I think a scripting engine would be fine, as well as supporting other stuff... now the trick is that you still bind all the crap into the same masterserver and autofetch content.

Thus, no matter what "mod" or "game" people are playing, it's still part of "Sauerbraten/Cube". You log onto the main server browser, can see all the servers playing other mods, etc. Then players can't say "look, i made a new game" when they make a glorified content-replacement - the Cube players will see their servers, and they'll see the main Cube servers.

And the fact is that while Cube's codebase is deliciously simple, it still is also very, very limited what a modder can do, even with coding knowledge. The minimalist attitude means that tons of existing material has to be rebuilt to add a new feature because you have to create a new special case and then try and refactor the old concepts in to work with that special case.

When the whole "engine seperation" thing is done, that might change things such that coders modding Sauer becomes more feasible - but without it, only the mappers and content-swappers will play.

Oh, and Televangelist, I recommend "Thinking in C++". It's a free e-book that teaches you to learn C++ as C++ was intended to be used, not as a set of extra tools for C coders.

reply to this message

#12: Re: Personally

by Televangelist on 12/06/2005 20:22, refers to #11

In terms of Cube/Sauer's usages for modding, that begs the question - how hard would it be to allow Cube to export its maps to other formats? Has this already been done? I've done some searching, but haven't turned up anything on it.

For instance, I have a working, Zelda-style engine for 3DGameStudio - it has everything from locking onto a target, a la Zelda 64, to being able to grab onto ledges when falling and move horizontally hanging along the ledge.

If I had the ability, via some sort of utility, to export maps I designed with Sauer into one of the usual 'standard' formats... That would be incredible.

It's scarcely imaginable that I'd be the first person to have thought of this; is there a thread relating to this already underway? I tried searching the board with a variety of keywords ("export", things like that) and turned up nothin'.

reply to this message

#13: ..

by makkE on 12/06/2005 23:16

Though it might be possible, it would be extremely difficult. Are you actually aware of the diffrences between quad/octree and bsp?

reply to this message

#14: Re: ..

by Televangelist on 12/07/2005 02:08, refers to #13

Well, I wasn't thinking of BSP specifically, though that's certainly one potential format. There are plenty of relatively broadly used 3D level formats out there.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this:

It would be a matter of work, but not extremely difficult from a "figuring out how" perspective, if you were importing to a map format where there was nothing Sauer could do that couldn't already be done in that format.

I understand how Quad/Octree works to minimize space and maximize efficiency and editability by storing far less information per "cube" than would the standard 3D program. My question would be - how it not hard to, porting one way, extrapolate from that minimum information into one of the 'usual' 3D formats?

My guess is, there are multiple things I'm getting wrong here. But hey, you correcting me helps me learn, and I did my best to read up some on it first and not just be pulling it out of my ass when asking completely n00b questions. ;)

reply to this message

#15: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 12/07/2005 09:51, refers to #14

"how hard would it be to allow Cube to export its maps to other formats?"

Too damn easy, infact. Took me all of 10 minutes or so to implement. I made it write .objs. Here's the result (recognize the map?):

http://sauerbraten.org/sauer_maps_in_max.jpg

reply to this message

#16: ..

by makkE on 12/07/2005 12:24

Oh, wow.
Sorry, I was wrong then.

reply to this message

#17: Re: ugh

by spentron on 12/07/2005 12:29, refers to #4

Maybe I don't understand what you had in mind for a scripting language, but scripting is far harder than content-swapping, at least to do anything substantial.

reply to this message

#18: Re: ..

by spentron on 12/07/2005 12:38, refers to #15

That relates to something I've been thinking of. What is needed is to be able to grab off bits of map to make moving things ("movers") like other games do (don't rely on mapmodels only for that). The less obvious advantage is that static movers can then be used for angles. The hard part of Sauer mapping is that you can make a complex geometry easily, but try the same geometry turned 20 degrees and tilted a bit ...

reply to this message

#19: Re: ..

by Televangelist on 12/07/2005 18:36, refers to #15

Aard, that's really awesome! :) Will that be a public feature?

I work a bit with 3DGameStudio, and I have all the code for a full on Zelda-esque game, with target-locking, being able to hang onto ledges when falling and climb horizontally, etcetera.

The only rough part of 3DGS was mapbuilding. If Sauer can export to .OBJ format, that makes my life unimaginably simpler.

reply to this message

#20: Re: ..

by Televangelist on 12/07/2005 18:39, refers to #18

"The hard part of Sauer mapping is that you can make a complex geometry easily, but try the same geometry turned 20 degrees and tilted a bit ... "

I've just gotten into Sauer mapping... isn't there some sort of tool to rotate what you've already made? Or is the problem that it overlaps the blue boxes and thus major performance hit?

reply to this message

#21: Re: ugh

by >driAn<. on 12/09/2005 21:02, refers to #21

"Yes. Especially don't expect that Aaardappel will be helpful to you, or will accept any help offer from you. He really is an exceptionally brilliant, arrogant, elitist a**hole."

Nope.
You called him an asshole, whats wrong with you? >:0 We know you have different opinions but thats no reason to spit at somebody.

"You stating that mod makers "cannot use Sauerbraten content" when in fact 90% of the Cube&Sauer content is made by the community (ie. lots of individual authors) and not by you, is, well, interesting."

Do you know what copyright is? Stuff made by the community is copyrighted too, the authors gave their permission to aard to ship their work with cube/sauer, but others have no right to use it in their own mods. Exception: Different rules specified in the readme.

Man, stop talking random shit.

reply to this message

#22: Re: ugh

by Gilt on 12/10/2005 02:10, refers to #22

if someone comes here to ask about the rights of the content, it implies that they are not interested in actually looking that stuff up themselves.

therefore the easiest and safest way of protecting everybodies rights is to just say "don't copy their stuff". I mean, do you really think it's better to just say "go ahead and copy everybodies work!"?

it's not like you can just say RTFLicence, since that's just plain naieve. if they were interested in doing that, they would have already.

reply to this message

#23: ..

by sinsky on 12/11/2005 11:47

About copyright and licences, I think it's hard to find what stands behind all this, whether the person who did what you're using would like it, etc. I think usually they don't care for one reason or another, but it's always better to get in touch when possible. And also to be honest when you say what you want. If you don't know what you want (my case:), that can be a real problem, but aard is not in that category.

reply to this message

#24: Re: ugh

by Aardappel_ on 12/12/2005 00:33, refers to #21

Wow. You call someone an asshole after he contributes a hell of a lot to the community, and then doesn't want to help a random coder with bad attitude. Do you have any idea how upside down your worldview is?

It always amazes me how high profile people that do stuff for others get a lot of bad press, somehow it is assumed that if you have given away a lot, then you are obliged to given even more to anyone who asks. If you don't, then you are an asshole, and an elitist for only helping those people you like. As soon as you start giving, you are everybodies slave.

As to media, yes, most people contributed to MY project because they like MY project. You can use their media too, if you get permission from each one individually for YOUR project. You already have permission to use my code (great huh?), now you need everyone elses permission too, you can't just reuse ALL media at once. Each author can do with their media as they please, so if they want to support YOUR project too, that is their choice.

I didn't think it was difficult, but explained once more for yours and others benefits.

That said, you have certainly crossed a line here with your level of being unreasonable. So, please leave. Take my code, do whatever you want with it, but don't come bothering myself and the other reasonable people on this forum again. Thank you for your cooperation.

reply to this message

#25: Re: ugh

by Sparr on 12/12/2005 07:42, refers to #25

> What's so difficult about saying: "Some of the data is free, but for the stuff having no readme file or the like, you have to ask the respective author for permission if you want to use it."

Except that he can't say "some of the data is free", because it might not be. No artist has given Aard permission to give other people permission to use their work.

reply to this message

#26: Re: ugh

by Aardappel_ on 12/12/2005 08:14, refers to #25

did you read my post at all? I never said I control other people's contribution to sauer. Infact, that is exactly the reason why I can't grant you the right to use all their stuff, you're gonna have to get their permission, not mine.

Even if something DOES have a readme file, that doesn't mean it is free for you to use. If a map for example has a readme file that says that it is free for use in other games, then by all means, use it in EDM or whatever.

How is it bragging? I made by far the largest contribution of anyone to this project. That is a very simple fact, no matter how you measure it, and I doubt anyone would have a problem with me stating it. I hate people that brag as much as the next guy, but I have no shame in saying that I created sauerbraten, because, well, I did.

I have a lot of fun working on sauerbraten, I wouldn't do it if it was slavelabour to a community. The only thing I hate is having to deal with people that make a negative contribution to the project.

reply to this message

#27: Besides...

by Pxtl on 12/14/2005 21:45

The majority of the public contributions to Sauer that aren't GPL are the maps and the weaponmodels. The maps you'd probably have to redo. The weaponmodels you could probably get permission (if there isn't already) by contacting the author. The map models (teleports, jump pads, etc.) are similar. The textures and monster models are mostly already open content.

So "redoing everything" is less work than you'd think. It's mostly the weapons, maps, and static meshes.

reply to this message

#28: Re: Besides...

by tentus on 12/15/2005 19:23, refers to #27

though, after a while, you find yourself working on the same model for hours and hours and still not having it where you want it :P that's happened to me more times than i want to think about.

hence, the "continual revision" philosophy of CL, a kind of stand that only a Modder can take, because Aard is confined by previous releases in a way tat Mods aren't. Once something gets published it becomes much harder to make large content changes, because it breaks things that other people have made. ie, the new teleport being completely out of place in half the maps.

reply to this message

   Board Index