What is Cube exactly ?

by Keemo on 12/05/2005 15:34, 28 messages, last message: 12/15/2005 19:23, 7486 views, last view: 05/15/2024 19:23

Hey Guys , Cube looks like a pretty impressive fps maker , but is that what it really is ? And is it any use if you dont code anything ? I currently know a language quite similar to BASIC , but not a clue about C or C++ , so my questions are these :-

What's Cube (features and uses)

Can I make use of it without coding in C/C++ ?

Keemo1000@hotmail.com

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#4: ugh

by Aardappel_ on 12/06/2005 05:53

I'm almost getting to point where I think we'd all be better off if I didn't add a scripting language to sauer.

Yes its an elitist and nasty point of view, but at least it means modding requires a tiny bit of brain activity, and we're not stuck with 1001 "FPS games" that are essentially sauer, but with a box map, a new logo, some random models and simpsons sound replacements, with the author claiming its his work.

If you are really a brilliant level designer / game designer but can't do C++, then the brilliance of your maps will probably inspire someone to do some C++ for you.

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#5: Re: ugh

by Aardappel_ on 12/06/2005 05:59, refers to #4

Additionally, I should make clear to "modders", that you basically have 2 choices when using sauer: making content for sauer, the FPS or RPG game, or going entirely your own way.

If you go your own way, you can use the engine source according to the ZLIB license, but not the content, and not the game as a whole. Meaning these "replace a bunch of files and rebrand it" mods are not permitted.

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#6: Re: ugh

by meatwaad on 12/06/2005 07:16, refers to #5

So, if we go my own way with sauer or cube, can we use internal map editor in final product? What do you mean by \\\"and not the game as a whole\\\"? To not copy menus and interface design or something else? According to ZLIB license its ok to create new commercial or free projects, but nothing from content (textures,models,sfx,music) should be copied. So engine with different textures, models, menus and other data with in-built game editor is ok to use?

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#7: ..

by Televangelist on 12/06/2005 08:31

Aard, I know you work hard on this and I appreciate that,but...

There will always be people who do shitty things with your work.

There will also be people who do really cool things with your work that you'll be glad you inspired.

There are people in both camps who know how to code in C++, and people in both camps who don't.

I sympathize with your not wanting to see your work essentially appropriated by others; pretty much everything I made for game creation purposes was under the earlier equivalent of GNU/GPL, so I've felt it a bit before.

But it's worth looking beyond that, in a positive light, to the unique potential you have here; to make something that brings a whole new group of non-coders into the design and creation process. Some of what they do will be shit, but all C++ coders aren't angels either. In the long run, the good outweighs the bad.


Who would remember SimCity, if Will Wright had decided, in a moment of negativity, to make it so you had to be a coder to build your own custom cities instead of playing the scenarios he made?

There are plenty of us out here who appreciate what you do, and hope that you focus not on the few negative side-effects of Sauer's ease-of-use, but on its positives.

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#8: Re: ugh

by Aardappel_ on 12/06/2005 08:38, refers to #6

yup that's fine.

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#9: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 12/06/2005 08:44, refers to #7

I don't think you can compare sauer to simcity. I have already given people tremendous power to create their own worlds in a way that is much more accessible than traditional level design, all without a single line of code. The power of what you can do with this will only extend as we move from the FPS to the RPG.

Maybe people should first make use of that, and learn to build worlds, before wanting to create "their own FPS" without even knowing how to tie their shoelaces.

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#10: Re: ..

by Televangelist on 12/06/2005 09:33, refers to #9

That's a fair point; I do see the flaw now in the comparison. And you are definitely extending the toolset available to Joe and Jane Schmoe. I'm just hoping that you won't decide to not go as far in the 'ease of use' department as you otherwise might normally, because of what a few jerks might do with it.

The challenge of how to 'socialize' newcomers into content-creation systems is an endless one on the internet, it seems. I don't think anyone has any really great answers yet, except to tell them "Read the FAQ" and hope they listen.


Maybe I'm just biased because C++ traumatized me at a young age. :P I started coding in QBasic at age 5 or so, took to it perfectly well, but when I started C++ a couple years later it was another beast entirely. Frustrated me so bad I'd end up soaking the C++ manual with tears, with the book eventually becoming a giant monster in my nightmares.

But that's neither here nor there, heh. I'm just fearful of anything that influences me to finally try learning C again, a decade later. ;P

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#11: Personally

by Pxtl on 12/06/2005 19:36

I think a scripting engine would be fine, as well as supporting other stuff... now the trick is that you still bind all the crap into the same masterserver and autofetch content.

Thus, no matter what "mod" or "game" people are playing, it's still part of "Sauerbraten/Cube". You log onto the main server browser, can see all the servers playing other mods, etc. Then players can't say "look, i made a new game" when they make a glorified content-replacement - the Cube players will see their servers, and they'll see the main Cube servers.

And the fact is that while Cube's codebase is deliciously simple, it still is also very, very limited what a modder can do, even with coding knowledge. The minimalist attitude means that tons of existing material has to be rebuilt to add a new feature because you have to create a new special case and then try and refactor the old concepts in to work with that special case.

When the whole "engine seperation" thing is done, that might change things such that coders modding Sauer becomes more feasible - but without it, only the mappers and content-swappers will play.

Oh, and Televangelist, I recommend "Thinking in C++". It's a free e-book that teaches you to learn C++ as C++ was intended to be used, not as a set of extra tools for C coders.

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#12: Re: Personally

by Televangelist on 12/06/2005 20:22, refers to #11

In terms of Cube/Sauer's usages for modding, that begs the question - how hard would it be to allow Cube to export its maps to other formats? Has this already been done? I've done some searching, but haven't turned up anything on it.

For instance, I have a working, Zelda-style engine for 3DGameStudio - it has everything from locking onto a target, a la Zelda 64, to being able to grab onto ledges when falling and move horizontally hanging along the ledge.

If I had the ability, via some sort of utility, to export maps I designed with Sauer into one of the usual 'standard' formats... That would be incredible.

It's scarcely imaginable that I'd be the first person to have thought of this; is there a thread relating to this already underway? I tried searching the board with a variety of keywords ("export", things like that) and turned up nothin'.

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#13: ..

by makkE on 12/06/2005 23:16

Though it might be possible, it would be extremely difficult. Are you actually aware of the diffrences between quad/octree and bsp?

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#14: Re: ..

by Televangelist on 12/07/2005 02:08, refers to #13

Well, I wasn't thinking of BSP specifically, though that's certainly one potential format. There are plenty of relatively broadly used 3D level formats out there.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this:

It would be a matter of work, but not extremely difficult from a "figuring out how" perspective, if you were importing to a map format where there was nothing Sauer could do that couldn't already be done in that format.

I understand how Quad/Octree works to minimize space and maximize efficiency and editability by storing far less information per "cube" than would the standard 3D program. My question would be - how it not hard to, porting one way, extrapolate from that minimum information into one of the 'usual' 3D formats?

My guess is, there are multiple things I'm getting wrong here. But hey, you correcting me helps me learn, and I did my best to read up some on it first and not just be pulling it out of my ass when asking completely n00b questions. ;)

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#15: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 12/07/2005 09:51, refers to #14

"how hard would it be to allow Cube to export its maps to other formats?"

Too damn easy, infact. Took me all of 10 minutes or so to implement. I made it write .objs. Here's the result (recognize the map?):

http://sauerbraten.org/sauer_maps_in_max.jpg

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#16: ..

by makkE on 12/07/2005 12:24

Oh, wow.
Sorry, I was wrong then.

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#17: Re: ugh

by spentron on 12/07/2005 12:29, refers to #4

Maybe I don't understand what you had in mind for a scripting language, but scripting is far harder than content-swapping, at least to do anything substantial.

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#18: Re: ..

by spentron on 12/07/2005 12:38, refers to #15

That relates to something I've been thinking of. What is needed is to be able to grab off bits of map to make moving things ("movers") like other games do (don't rely on mapmodels only for that). The less obvious advantage is that static movers can then be used for angles. The hard part of Sauer mapping is that you can make a complex geometry easily, but try the same geometry turned 20 degrees and tilted a bit ...

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#19: Re: ..

by Televangelist on 12/07/2005 18:36, refers to #15

Aard, that's really awesome! :) Will that be a public feature?

I work a bit with 3DGameStudio, and I have all the code for a full on Zelda-esque game, with target-locking, being able to hang onto ledges when falling and climb horizontally, etcetera.

The only rough part of 3DGS was mapbuilding. If Sauer can export to .OBJ format, that makes my life unimaginably simpler.

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#20: Re: ..

by Televangelist on 12/07/2005 18:39, refers to #18

"The hard part of Sauer mapping is that you can make a complex geometry easily, but try the same geometry turned 20 degrees and tilted a bit ... "

I've just gotten into Sauer mapping... isn't there some sort of tool to rotate what you've already made? Or is the problem that it overlaps the blue boxes and thus major performance hit?

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#21: Re: ugh

by >driAn<. on 12/09/2005 21:02, refers to #21

"Yes. Especially don't expect that Aaardappel will be helpful to you, or will accept any help offer from you. He really is an exceptionally brilliant, arrogant, elitist a**hole."

Nope.
You called him an asshole, whats wrong with you? >:0 We know you have different opinions but thats no reason to spit at somebody.

"You stating that mod makers "cannot use Sauerbraten content" when in fact 90% of the Cube&Sauer content is made by the community (ie. lots of individual authors) and not by you, is, well, interesting."

Do you know what copyright is? Stuff made by the community is copyrighted too, the authors gave their permission to aard to ship their work with cube/sauer, but others have no right to use it in their own mods. Exception: Different rules specified in the readme.

Man, stop talking random shit.

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#22: Re: ugh

by Gilt on 12/10/2005 02:10, refers to #22

if someone comes here to ask about the rights of the content, it implies that they are not interested in actually looking that stuff up themselves.

therefore the easiest and safest way of protecting everybodies rights is to just say "don't copy their stuff". I mean, do you really think it's better to just say "go ahead and copy everybodies work!"?

it's not like you can just say RTFLicence, since that's just plain naieve. if they were interested in doing that, they would have already.

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#23: ..

by sinsky on 12/11/2005 11:47

About copyright and licences, I think it's hard to find what stands behind all this, whether the person who did what you're using would like it, etc. I think usually they don't care for one reason or another, but it's always better to get in touch when possible. And also to be honest when you say what you want. If you don't know what you want (my case:), that can be a real problem, but aard is not in that category.

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