The way newcomers join Sauerbraten's gameplay

by suicizer01 on 04/07/2011 23:13, 56 messages, last message: 10/26/2011 07:20, 14504 views, last view: 05/23/2024 16:35

After I played Sauerbraten frequently for a while again, I noticed that most servers (with some people playing on it) are having insta on it, or worse, an extension of it (like instateam, instactf, etc).
I've noticed this is the set up of servers in sauerbraten, today:
- 1 Server wich has no maprotation at all, exept instateam venice.
- 1 Server wich is always set on instactf, but gladly some maprotation in it, even tough the same maps get often played over and over again by voting.
- 1 Server wich contains regen capture and also some maprotation. Because most current beginning players don't know anything about the voting system at all, less maps get reloaded after the last one again.

The rest of the servers are coopedit, duels or just not that important to the subject.

When your a newcomer, you often join the server wich instateam venice first.
Why? Since it's the first one on the list, because contains highest ammount of players.
This is actually a very bad thing, since most of those newcomers aren't used to such fast but simple gameplay. Because of that, they get killed a lot of times, while they barely even had time to move (since they don't know the map either).
This creates a lot of negative toughts to Sauerbraten, while it shouldn't be like that.
This counts for the 2 other modes as well, but way less.

Deathmatch somehow gets your in shape quicker than team-based modes and learns you the game way faster.
Why? Probabaly because you aren't able to "lift" with your teammate, wich could be better than you (especially when your new to sauerbraten).

Of course, when newcomers would join huge insta matches, where it's just all vs all on a nice map, they get killed often. But at least they get a way more better image about sauerbraten, that's it not only a game wich has a flawless, outdated campmap as 1st map on the 1st ranked server.

To all (old) players, I hope you remember the time you started, wich probably was when deathmatch was still ruling sauerbraten and when the frags were really mattering (like 3 years ago or even more).

I would suggest to everyone wich runs a server, do newcomers a favor and don't put instateam venice as default mode and map. They aren't waiting for that...

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#33: ..

by cbyce on 07/01/2011 11:05

Let me preface my post with this: Cube 2 is a beautifully designed engine. I love it. I am perfectly happy just messing around with the editor by myself. I also admire the code. I've had some fun messing with it, doing things like allowing air control in movement, adding teleport material, letting projectiles pass through teleports, etc. So hopefully, having said all this, people don't think I'm hating on the game with this post.


I am a Quake player. I've been playing Quake for some years, and I am pretty good at it. So when I try any deathmatch game like Sauerbraten, my expectations are pretty high.

Unfortunately, Sauerbraten's gameplay has pretty much no depth and it is not a challenging game at all. You pretty much hold down your "forward" key (strafing slows you down and has an annoying roll effect) to instantly move ridiculously fast and pick up the plethora of items that are seemingly always available. The maps are generally flat with not many walls, and therefore there is not much positional advantage to be had. The weapons are pretty uninteresting and I doubt they are even close to being balanced, but this point is actually the least important.

TL;DR: The game is designed to be extremely simple, and without any challenges to motivate players to improve, it is just boring. If you want to just mindlessly run around shooting at stuff then you might as well just play instagib. You can't really blame people for that.

I hope this post doesn't come off as too harsh (or too long!), because as I said, I love the engine. I just wanted to give my opinion as a competitive deathmatch player as to why people probably aren't playing deathmatch on Sauerbraten.

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#34: Re: ..

by Razgriz on 07/01/2011 15:19, refers to #33

You\'ve made teleport material that allows projectiles though? That\'s goddamn awesome!

Apart from the things i\'d like to see which you describe, it is true that Sauer was made simple. It\'s also the point that not many people are likely to try new maps, just because they\'re \"trained\" to play the same over and over due to how everybody else does that and because they\'re easy to navigate. You could say that what matters most in this game is having a fast and precise aim and the skill to confuse the opponents by popping out on them unexpected. There\'s been a call for a long time for more and newer maps to be added, tried out and have the community decide whether they\'re worth it or not, but that\'s so far as been a dream since the only maps i recall being added are of certified people, like t-chen and nieb.

I\'m not saying their maps are bad, but nieb in particular tends to oversimplify the maps to a point where it seems ridiculous. In his latest map \"garden\", me and jake and some others had taken the liberty of helping design a few things and detail some areas. The walls for one were not completely flat as they are now, nieb decided to remove all those details before releasing the map, and so pretty much all the work we did was cleared. The pathway below the arch now is completely flat.

There is also the problem of nice maps being outdated and looking like they came from a 2000 game. I will relay the map \"complex\" for this example. The geometry complexity is practically non-existent. The textures are really old ones which i believe are from Quake. The lights could use a rework to appear more natural, and the skybox, i find it horrible. Despite its being a favorite for many players, one of the reasons i don\'t play old maps like that one is because they look like that. New blood is needed.

Regarding your comment about weapons, are you referring to the ammo placement or just to their visuals when saying \"uninteresting .. being balanced\"?

Any interest that sparks from this game stems from the ability to easily make maps, which is the main feature of the game. You could say that gameplay comes second, but then again, what\'s the point in making maps that no one can try out? So the challenges to the gameplay also rely heavily on the kind of map you\'re playing on. People always nag about how floors are a bit bumpy or why there is death at certain spots, but making a flat map with no variety and no traps at all is just.. not all that fun, unless you can make it up with stunning work. I really don\'t know what to add at this point, because i like how simple things are kept when it comes to gameplay, and tell you the truth, half of the time i\'m playing i\'m always talking, so it\'s not just mindless shooting when you have people to laugh with and compete.

Pancakes, have one, don\'t give up. :)

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#35: ..

by Drekow on 07/01/2011 20:21

I think cbyce found difficults in FFA and CTF modes, cause the gameplay is very different form a wepons game like quake or UT.

But the game have is own movement, and each maps is rules.

Also powerups like quaddamage and YA are more extreme in this game, if you have it you win the round.
Armor does not add each one, and theren't the small +5armor/healt power up. So you have to pick YA to survive.

The balance in weapons is awesome, you will fast forun a role for grenades, in my opinion the shotgun can be a bit faster at rate of fire.

IS a different game from quake, and you have to learn it to master. Is not quake, is fast, but is a differnt game, wich is awesome in capture mode. :D

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#36: Re: ..

by Zamwa on 07/01/2011 20:23, refers to #34

+1

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#37: Re: ..

by Zorg on 07/02/2011 01:41, refers to #33

I don't wanna lecture a "good Quake player", because you probably are way more experienced in gaming than me, but:

"You pretty much hold down your "forward" key (strafing slows you down and has an annoying roll effect) to instantly move ridiculously fast and pick up the plethora of items that are seemingly always available."

You either are one of the very best Sauerbraten players, or you haven't yet played against really good players. I'm always looking for running effic/capture games when I login, and I know most good players prefer the non-insta modes as instagib is - like you said - just boring. We (as in: the "old" Sauerbraten community) just didn't manage to take the new players with us.

Oh, and about the maps: Yes, many of the newer iCTF maps are flat. I totally agree with you there, I'd like them to have more depth (vertical gameplay), too.

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#38: ..

by cbyce on 07/02/2011 06:20

"You've made teleport material that allows projectiles though? That's goddamn awesome!"

Yeah, I wanted to be able to make Quake-style teleports that are part of a wall. This way there's not a teleport model in the way and the map looks and feels cleaner. I was playing a lot of Quake 4 at the time, so that's where teleporting projectiles comes from. :D

I'm sure you can tell I was toying with the idea of making a mod for more competitive play. Quake-style gameplay with the Cube 2 editor would be awesome to me; but obviously it would take a lot of work for something I'm not sure people would really be interested in. Maybe I'll get back to it some day.

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#39: Re: ..

by Razgriz on 07/02/2011 09:32, refers to #38

Oh, now that you mention it, you can disable the roll effect by doing /maxroll 0.

As for the teleports.. yea, there's a trick to it. See in the picture from a map of mine below:

https://picasaweb.google.com/8924th/AncientMassacre#5623713697960620994

It's what i call a black void teleport. All you have to do is make a black room with some unconventional spacing, put some particles in, and use invinsible teleports. Then you get a portal which looks like it came from another world. Personally, i hate the teleport model too, and i encourage others to make their own teleports as well to make a map using them more beautiful. Few follow this advise, but i can't blame them.

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#40: ..

by megalo on 07/03/2011 22:54

I agree with just about everything that has been said here, to be honest.

I agree that the weapons modes need to be pursued a lot more and sort of "pushed" onto the newer generation players. I come from what you may call the middle generation and have been playing for about 2.5 years, and I think I was part of the first group of players to make insta their primary mode of choice. I am mainly an insta player, although I do love the weapons modes as well, but I'd like to offer another couple points of view on this.

First of all, I think the reason that many newcomers do not play anything other than insta is the fact that they cannot find anyone to play in ffa or efficiency without getting their a** kicked. The older generations of players have much more experience than the newcomers, and since the newer generations don't play these modes nearly as much, even if they wanted to give it a try, they would need to find someone with much more skill and experience. There are two problems to this: 1. The more experienced players might not want to play a "noob," seeing it as a waste of time and 2. Even if this player agrees, it is doubtful he will show mercy and the newer player is likely to give up, thinking there is no hope, basically ragequitting the mode altogether. This is actually the reason I personally never got into these modes until just recently in my sauer career. It honestly sucked getting destroyed in these modes every time out there in my early days by far superior players, learning basically nothing in the process, and it was much more enjoyable to kick back with some insta and actually compete.

Secondly, maybe some players (including me) just aren't looking for something with "depth" and challenge to it. Everyone knows that Sauer is not the most complex FPS out there. If players wanted a game like that, they would play Quake or something similar. I love the ability to just take a seat and make some quick frags whenever I want to on Sauer, stress-free, without any real training or practice, and still being able to perform well. Unless you want to be the best player, insta does not require much training to become well above-average. I have neither the time nor willpower to actually train or learn modes, which is the reason I stopped playing Quake. I'm not saying that this is right, but I'm saying that I'm guessing that the majority of the public Sauer community is like me in the way that they love the "mindless fragging" aspect of the game, and don't feel like hours of training to become skilled at a level that requires skill to actually enjoy playing.

TL;DR .. Generations change and skill level gaps create problems in breeding ffa-playing newcomers, and sometimes the mindless fragging of insta is truly all that people desire from this game, otherwise they would be playing a game with more depth and challenging aspects, such as Quake.

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#41: ..

by megalo on 07/03/2011 23:09

In last sentence of 4th paragraph, I meant "mode" not "level."

Has the ability to edit posts been included in the "The next update" post yet? :D

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#42: Re: ..

by Zamwa on 07/04/2011 08:04, refers to #40

A vote of +1 wouldn't do your post any justice! There's just no way anyone can phrase it any better then you! It hits the core of the problem to why the majority of newbies are not biting online nowadays!
Every time I try to rally up some players I get decimated by veteran players to point that more than half the players on My team left the sever before any time to balance teams! That happens with any mode with teams!

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#43: Re: ..

by suicizer01 on 07/04/2011 09:22, refers to #42

@Zamwa
I wouldn't mind to play some ffa or efficiency (too bad tactics-arena isn't existing any more. The currently tactics just fails and isn't tactical at all), but Quake just has way better gameplay for those modes.

@megalo,
It truly is a matter of taste about mindless fragging or gameplay with some more depth in it.
But does it means Sauerbraten is just a game which actually abandons older player?
I'm like 1 of the first players of the middle generation, started more than 3 years ago, so I still played on the best release of all, assassin edition. Where gameplay was just gameplay and frags were just frags.
I dislike those mindless frags on insta servers, just because it's not a challenge anymore.
So I think, Sauerbraten should have a better connection between the deathmatch and team-modes, but also in deathmatch itself.
If there also would be just some more depth in deathmatch, that would make a lot of difference for those older sauerbraten players.

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#44: Re: ..

by Zorg on 07/04/2011 17:02, refers to #40

+1 to megalo. Although I think your "Secondly" might well be a consequence of your "First of all".

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#45: ..

by elel on 07/28/2011 04:47

I'll have to 'admit' that I'm another of the recent players (2 years or so), and that I DO LIKE the insta modes, especially iCTF. I can see where the people who are tired of insta are coming from, but I don't see why they want it taken out of the game. IMO, it is a good mode for noobs because they can actually get kills (I never survived more than a couple of seconds in my early deathmatches, and never dealt enough damage to get a kill). It's also good for experienced players because of the challenge of finding the best routes through the maps. And, obviously, most people who actually play agree with me to some extent.

I don't particularly like regen capture, but I don't want it taken from the game, especially when lots of people are playing it.

I will say though that this thread has done this much good, that before I jump on the PSL or nooblounge iCTF server, I now check to see if I can support anyone's game in some other, less common, mode. And I think that that kind of result is all you can really ask for.

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#46: ..

by greatdeer on 10/17/2011 11:29

Instalgib on Venice is the best map and best game I had ever played

Everyone who play Quake2 should agree that q2dm1 is the best map for DM or Duel, that map is designed with delicated route and enable various strategy.

I think this map Venice is also one of the best maps, not only in this game but in all fast fps games.


it is both ok for a few people chasing or a loads of people dog-fighting, and it is also suitable for some one who likes to be snipers or assassions

When I played this map I always get myself excited and after a few rounds of game I am totally relaxed from hard work.

that is what a game has to do.

and for newcomers, I believe that they can get into the condition and evade the spawnkill easily after a few games.

actually spawn campers and sniper from the roof will not get the best scores.
the best way to get in top 3 in Venice is dog-fighting, which will drive you mad and let you be completely released from presure of work

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#47: Re: ..

by Sub-Zero on 10/20/2011 02:41, refers to #46

*In a sneezing motion and sounds* "Fucktardis!!!" Sorry, I am allergic to fucktards. All that you just now said is not relevant. Venice is a shit map, always has been, always will be. And instead of taking the time out to re-type everything that is wrong with it, I decided to just cut and paste my very first post on this thread so you can learn about this map, and learn about the game.


"Skid, here's a small list of things about it that makes it a big hit:
1. Very tight, less movement, makes people easy to hit.
2. There is a lot of tiny windows that face the spawn places that also hide the shooters, makes for easy spawn killing.
3. Sadistically, the spawns are all in the open areas and all face out somewhere where people can get behind them and shoot them or use the chainsaw."


All in all, this map lacks EVERYTHING to be a map of any worth, i have made some shitty maps in my time, but nothing as awful as this.

What this map lacks:
Flow
Correct spawn locations
Good lighting
Good texturing
Proper use of materials such as water.
And most importantly FLOW!

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#48: Re: ..

by suicizer01 on 10/21/2011 17:31, refers to #47

You notified flow twice :P.
But I agree with that. Maybe it should be remade properly, with better tactical areas (like houses which aren't box-like, but with chamfered sides, for a more tactical gameplay. Buildings on several ground-heights, etc).

I maybe one day will do such thing, but have more projects to finish at the moment.

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#49: Re: ..

by Zamwa on 10/21/2011 23:27, refers to #47

It's likely the "rough-flow" aspect that attracts gamers! It's easy to judge Venice in any other mode than insta!
I think the negative aspects that adds to the challenge of gameplay is what lures Me in!

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#50: Re: ..

by suicizer01 on 10/23/2011 03:39, refers to #49

Insta is actually a bad way of checking out how the flow is, since it's not showing any pickups at all (which can lead players to certain area, like armour, health, powerups or just ammo). If the player isn't able to move to that specific point easy, the map probably won't have a great flow at all.

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#51: Re: ..

by Sub-Zero on 10/24/2011 20:19, refers to #50

sui, no shit sherlock, its because flow is the one thing it is lacking the most. and you are right insta is bad for testing flow, but if the flow is awful in insta, it can only be worse in any other mode.

zamwa: you are a fucktard, spawn camping, spawn camping, spawn camping. that is all this map is.

if you want to spawn camp, why not make a map based that entirely.

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#52: Re: ..

by AlternateLives on 10/24/2011 21:30, refers to #51

Sub-Zero: it seems you have quite a strong opinion. While I agree the flow and spawn point locations are clearly in error, what (or what else) do you think is specifically the problem with the flow on Venice? Is it with the buildings, the paths, or something else? I ask this because I thought I might give it a shot and try to improve the map.

This question also goes towards everyone in the community as well.

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