The way newcomers join Sauerbraten's gameplay

by suicizer01 on 04/07/2011 23:13, 56 messages, last message: 10/26/2011 07:20, 14497 views, last view: 05/17/2024 21:15

After I played Sauerbraten frequently for a while again, I noticed that most servers (with some people playing on it) are having insta on it, or worse, an extension of it (like instateam, instactf, etc).
I've noticed this is the set up of servers in sauerbraten, today:
- 1 Server wich has no maprotation at all, exept instateam venice.
- 1 Server wich is always set on instactf, but gladly some maprotation in it, even tough the same maps get often played over and over again by voting.
- 1 Server wich contains regen capture and also some maprotation. Because most current beginning players don't know anything about the voting system at all, less maps get reloaded after the last one again.

The rest of the servers are coopedit, duels or just not that important to the subject.

When your a newcomer, you often join the server wich instateam venice first.
Why? Since it's the first one on the list, because contains highest ammount of players.
This is actually a very bad thing, since most of those newcomers aren't used to such fast but simple gameplay. Because of that, they get killed a lot of times, while they barely even had time to move (since they don't know the map either).
This creates a lot of negative toughts to Sauerbraten, while it shouldn't be like that.
This counts for the 2 other modes as well, but way less.

Deathmatch somehow gets your in shape quicker than team-based modes and learns you the game way faster.
Why? Probabaly because you aren't able to "lift" with your teammate, wich could be better than you (especially when your new to sauerbraten).

Of course, when newcomers would join huge insta matches, where it's just all vs all on a nice map, they get killed often. But at least they get a way more better image about sauerbraten, that's it not only a game wich has a flawless, outdated campmap as 1st map on the 1st ranked server.

To all (old) players, I hope you remember the time you started, wich probably was when deathmatch was still ruling sauerbraten and when the frags were really mattering (like 3 years ago or even more).

I would suggest to everyone wich runs a server, do newcomers a favor and don't put instateam venice as default mode and map. They aren't waiting for that...

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#1: ..

by Zorg on 04/08/2011 11:07

+1

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#2: ..

by Papriko on 04/08/2011 17:25

Even worse are the servers which block other game modes than, as you pointed out, insta. So even WHEN you know about the voting system, the server gives a s**t on your votes and you probably are dead cuz you wasted time with typing or looking through the menus...

Your only choice is then either to play insta and get frustrated by being not more than a victim or looking for another server which is non-insta + non-coop and you get frustrated too, because there are hardly any like that.

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#3: ..

by suicizer01 on 04/09/2011 18:31

Another thing wich makes it harder for newcomers to learn the gameplay of sauerbraten; playerlimit on servers.
After the ctf-edition came out, only 16 players where allowed to play (insta)ctf on most servers.
Now, it's even 24 players wich is allowed!
This creates very uncontrolled matches, where it goes more about the frags than the gameplay.
This makes it way harder to understand how the gameplay is set up and wich paths you should take to the enemies base.

Why there is such huge difference (8 players more, while the maps are still calculated for 16 players or even less!)
as server limit?
My answers are the popularity-race and the way to get high statistic quicker.

Most people (especially newcomers) just click on the server wich is 1st on the list.
How you get your server first on the serverlist? raise the serverlimit higher than other servers!
This will expand more and more till maps really become unplayable and players notice that it just doesn't work to play with like 32 people on reissen, flagstone or face-capture (just some examples).
This counts for other modes as well.

The explanation of the statistic-race is, if there are more players on a server, when your 1 of the best on that moment, it's a great way to get kills in a short time.

So again, to anyone who has or is going to set up a server, make sure the map stays playable with a certain ammount of players. I recommend up to 16 players for team-modes and up to 8 or 12 for deathmatch modes.

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#4: ..

by SpartanKirby on 04/10/2011 01:27

I\\\\\\\'m new to this game but when I hopped into Insta Team I did okay.

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#5: ..

by tman elite on 04/11/2011 08:28

Alright here's the deal.

I totally agree with what you guys are saying. Having insta as the only option will probably just drive away new players.

The problem is the reason it's the only option is because that's what everyone wants to play. If people want to do something about it they can host their own servers and play deathmatch or regular ctf or capture or efficiency. The problem is that it seems nobody wants to play those, everyone just wants to play insta.

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#6: Important topic

by Hanack on 04/11/2011 08:29

Thats an important topic. Newcomers mostly dies often because they don't know the maps and weapons. Also, sauerbraten is a fast game. Last but not least on public servers there are a mix of noobs and long time players.

I think its a good thing that new players starts with "only" insta-ctf, because they don't have to concentrate on weapons. Later they can go on server which supports more game modes.

The venice server is really a problem. Its true that new players go to the most top server in the list. Another problem is that there seems no admins or masters around. Instead there are much cheaters. New players doesn't have a chance.

The playerlimit is hard to define. We have huge maps like xenon where 24 players aren't much and tiny maps like alloy where 16 players are too much. There is no practical way to adjust the player slots on running servers.

Also there are long time players that doesn\'t care about their teams. They play instagib on insta-ctf servers.

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#7: Re: ..

by suicizer01 on 04/11/2011 18:37, refers to #5

Not true, since I love to play any mode other mode than insta.

Too bad people seems to forgot those gamemodes...

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#8: Re: Important topic

by suicizer01 on 04/11/2011 18:40, refers to #6

There is hanack, when admins would set up a serverrotation.
Like when you have a server with a max of 24 players, don't put maps like face-capture, wdcd, etc in it. Those maps are ment for a maximum of 6 vs 6, not 12 vs 12.

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#9: Re: Important topic

by Hanack on 04/12/2011 05:33, refers to #8

I understand your argument and it is partly true.

We decided to make any map playable on insta-ctf available to give the players the choice which maps they want to play. So, instead of playing the same 8 maps again and again, there are over 30 maps which makes it less boring.

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#10: Re: Important topic

by suicizer01 on 04/12/2011 08:08, refers to #9

Seems like it's a balance problem between having too much maps with different maximum playersize and servers wich have too low ammount of maps in their maprotation.

I think if you would able to vote for those maps wich aren't in that 8-maprotation, then it would be pretty balanced...

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#11: Re: Important topic

by suicizer01 on 04/12/2011 12:28, refers to #6

Hanack, I disagree with you that newcomers should play only insta-ctf, because it's only 4/19 (exclusive coop-edit and singleplayer) of the gameplay of sauerbraten. This isn't creating a good image of where sauerbraten is about.
Like i said previous, newcomers should play deathmatch modes, like efficiency or instantgib.

Deathmatch gets you in shape quicker than team-based modes and learns you the game way faster.

Why?
Because your goal is to get the most frags, not the most flags (wich should be your goal in ctf, even tough there are a lot of people who think that getting the most frags is the goal in ctf).

This makes you focus on your opponent's movement, behaviour, aiming, lag, etc.

In ctf you also have to know the shortest way to bases, shortcuts, traps, etc.

You also don't have to know the map that properly when playing efficiency or instantgib (in ffa you do tough). Of course it would create an advantage if you do, but it's not that necassery as team-based modes.

If you don't know the map in instactf, you get in trouble very quickly (like you don't know the underground maze-structure and the jumppads in sacrafice or the teleports in authentic).

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#12: Re: Important topic

by suicizer01 on 04/12/2011 12:32, refers to #11

When playing insta, you also get only 2/7 of the weapons ingame, wich looks like sauerbraten is some kind of dumb, fast but flat-gameplay based game, wich is completly unrealstic (even tough it is pretty flat :S).
Most times you can even say it's even only 3/14 of the weapons ingame, because the saw isn't getting used as often as the rifle is in insta, especially instactf.

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#13: ..

by baby~rabbit on 04/12/2011 12:46

Sadly Sauerbraten isn't well known enough to likely be a newcomers first ever FPS. Thus i'd hope that the concepts of moving, aiming, and firing are fairly universal. Run&gun, you shoot stuff and die, etc.

If people don't like a server or are confused by a gamemode then surely they just try another one? Additionally there was only one venice server last time I looked, and it wasn't at the top of the browser list either.

As an "old" player, yes I remember the early days where there was a fine art in knowing which weapon to use in which situation. It was a random mess with no team spirit, you vs everyone else, very little tactics - what was the question again?

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#14: Re: ..

by suicizer01 on 04/12/2011 15:36, refers to #13

Yes and that random mess, was great!
It completly fits to sauerbraten!
This game is becoming more and more some kind of fast and simple team fortress 2 :S.

It's some kind of discussion, no question at all :P.

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#15: Re: ..

by Zorg on 04/13/2011 00:26, refers to #13

I disagree.
- Sauerbraten was my first FPS.
- I think if people are confused by a gamemode, chances are they get tired of the game (especially if there is only 1 gamemode played on the servers)
- As an old player I think it was anything but a random mess back then. I rather think today it is messed up as the newcomers don't know what to do and half of the good players don't play the mode but play for the frags instead.

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#16: Bot matches

by AlternateLives on 04/13/2011 18:35

I started Sauer using the "Bot Match" feature, and got used to just about all of the game modes before I ever linked to a server. what's stopping a new player from doing this instead of hitting the servers?

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#17: ...

by Skidborg on 04/15/2011 22:44

I think what keeps the Venice server at the top of the list is that it is playing on a large map with an awesome variety of terrain. If we want to dislodge it, we need to build better maps that have all the same features. Easier said than done, but instead of blaming the server that is succeeding, maybe we should look at what the other ones are doing wrong.

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#18: Re: ...

by |ice|sub-zero|L on 04/17/2011 02:55, refers to #17

What are you? Dense? The reason the map is such a big hit is because its the map noobs get to camp on, it has nothing to do with the layout, its just a shit map, and needs to be removed from sauer. it hasn't fit Sauerbraten's game-play for a long ass time, and it never will unless eihrul makes the game a less fast FPS game, which of course is unlikely.

Skid, here's a small list of things about it that makes it a big hit:
1. Very tight, less movement, makes people easy to hit.
2. There is a lot of tiny windows that face the spawn places that also hide the shooters, makes for easy spawn killing.
3. Sadistically, the spawns are all in the open areas and all face out somewhere where people can get behind them and shoot them or use the chainsaw.

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#19: ..

by Papriko on 04/17/2011 17:34

Agreed. "an awesome variety of terrain" is funny. The terrain is in the case of Venice just a bunch of houses with some water here and there.
Sub-Zero pointed it out very well. With all the windows, the narrow paths and the poor placement of spawns, it represents a wonderful place for campers.

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#20: !!

by 2r on 04/17/2011 20:46

Finally someone with the same thoughts as me! yes i would love it if people would play more normal modes like FFA or normal CTF. i am very angry. i leave sauerbaten for a few years, come back and what am i greeted with? iCTF and Regen Capture? what has happened to the community? i Think the only solution is to gather up huge parties to play on FFA or CTF so that when newcomers join they see those servers instead of the garbage people are playing today!

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