The way newcomers join Sauerbraten's gameplay

by suicizer01 on 04/07/2011 23:13, 56 messages, last message: 10/26/2011 07:20, 14498 views, last view: 05/18/2024 20:56

After I played Sauerbraten frequently for a while again, I noticed that most servers (with some people playing on it) are having insta on it, or worse, an extension of it (like instateam, instactf, etc).
I've noticed this is the set up of servers in sauerbraten, today:
- 1 Server wich has no maprotation at all, exept instateam venice.
- 1 Server wich is always set on instactf, but gladly some maprotation in it, even tough the same maps get often played over and over again by voting.
- 1 Server wich contains regen capture and also some maprotation. Because most current beginning players don't know anything about the voting system at all, less maps get reloaded after the last one again.

The rest of the servers are coopedit, duels or just not that important to the subject.

When your a newcomer, you often join the server wich instateam venice first.
Why? Since it's the first one on the list, because contains highest ammount of players.
This is actually a very bad thing, since most of those newcomers aren't used to such fast but simple gameplay. Because of that, they get killed a lot of times, while they barely even had time to move (since they don't know the map either).
This creates a lot of negative toughts to Sauerbraten, while it shouldn't be like that.
This counts for the 2 other modes as well, but way less.

Deathmatch somehow gets your in shape quicker than team-based modes and learns you the game way faster.
Why? Probabaly because you aren't able to "lift" with your teammate, wich could be better than you (especially when your new to sauerbraten).

Of course, when newcomers would join huge insta matches, where it's just all vs all on a nice map, they get killed often. But at least they get a way more better image about sauerbraten, that's it not only a game wich has a flawless, outdated campmap as 1st map on the 1st ranked server.

To all (old) players, I hope you remember the time you started, wich probably was when deathmatch was still ruling sauerbraten and when the frags were really mattering (like 3 years ago or even more).

I would suggest to everyone wich runs a server, do newcomers a favor and don't put instateam venice as default mode and map. They aren't waiting for that...

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#17: ...

by Skidborg on 04/15/2011 22:44

I think what keeps the Venice server at the top of the list is that it is playing on a large map with an awesome variety of terrain. If we want to dislodge it, we need to build better maps that have all the same features. Easier said than done, but instead of blaming the server that is succeeding, maybe we should look at what the other ones are doing wrong.

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#18: Re: ...

by |ice|sub-zero|L on 04/17/2011 02:55, refers to #17

What are you? Dense? The reason the map is such a big hit is because its the map noobs get to camp on, it has nothing to do with the layout, its just a shit map, and needs to be removed from sauer. it hasn't fit Sauerbraten's game-play for a long ass time, and it never will unless eihrul makes the game a less fast FPS game, which of course is unlikely.

Skid, here's a small list of things about it that makes it a big hit:
1. Very tight, less movement, makes people easy to hit.
2. There is a lot of tiny windows that face the spawn places that also hide the shooters, makes for easy spawn killing.
3. Sadistically, the spawns are all in the open areas and all face out somewhere where people can get behind them and shoot them or use the chainsaw.

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#19: ..

by Papriko on 04/17/2011 17:34

Agreed. "an awesome variety of terrain" is funny. The terrain is in the case of Venice just a bunch of houses with some water here and there.
Sub-Zero pointed it out very well. With all the windows, the narrow paths and the poor placement of spawns, it represents a wonderful place for campers.

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#20: !!

by 2r on 04/17/2011 20:46

Finally someone with the same thoughts as me! yes i would love it if people would play more normal modes like FFA or normal CTF. i am very angry. i leave sauerbaten for a few years, come back and what am i greeted with? iCTF and Regen Capture? what has happened to the community? i Think the only solution is to gather up huge parties to play on FFA or CTF so that when newcomers join they see those servers instead of the garbage people are playing today!

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#21: Re: !!

by Zorg on 04/18/2011 09:12, refers to #20

+1

A lot of people seem to be prefering the ffa/effic/CTF/capture modes. So instead of whining in the face of 'insta everywhere', we should join the servers with the gamemodes we like, even if there are only 2 or 3 players on. Maybe one more player is sufficient to populate the server. Or we might even join an empty server and wait until someone comes by. And of course those who are on IRC can shout a "anybody up for classic capture/effic-CTF/ffa/...? => server 666.666.6.6" in the channels.

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#22: Re: !!

by 2r on 04/18/2011 18:20, refers to #21

... most people do prefer insta.. and i am not talking about the intelligent people of the community website and IRC, i am talking about the idiots who join and immediatly go play instagib. sadly this IS the majority of players

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#23: ..

by wolfric on 04/26/2011 15:29

I definitely agree with "less insta more ctf or efficiency" etc.

I'm just tired of insta and capture. ffa, teamplay, efficiency or any of those combined with capture would be fun.

If you want, I've got a server hosted here wolfric.dyndns.info You can claim master and play to your hearts content. I normally set up a game of efficiency there but i don't any big games with more than a few players.

capture as well is horrible. You generally spent your time firing a single grenade and having it out with pistols. You die too fast to ever enjoy more than a couple of shots with a random weapon.

On the other hand i actually really enjoy the venice server and i don't see anything wrong with it. I don't spawn kill, camp or go to the roofs to sniper people. I like the fact that once i die i can get straight back into the game without having to look much for people to kill. I also think the place looks amazing. It looks like a lot of time was put into building it.


On an offnote, how DO the servers get sorted? I would have thought they should be sorted by ping.

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#24: Re: ..

by wolfric on 04/26/2011 15:30, refers to #23

combined with ctf not capture sorry

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#25: Re: ..

by suicizer01 on 04/26/2011 16:45, refers to #24

You forgot there is classic capture and regen capture...
The mode wich you were subscribing, it was regencapture, instead of the classic one.

If you ever played that mode, you would find out capture was once based on a combination of tactics (arena) and teamplay, because of the limited ammo spawn, but still being able to pick up a quad, healthboost, armour and/or health...

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#26: Re: ..

by suicizer01 on 04/26/2011 16:50, refers to #23

Servers seem to get sorted by the ammount of players, if there are any players on it.
If there aren't any players on certain servers or the ammount is equal, it get sorted by ping.

So for short:
1st - Playerammmount
2nd - Ping

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#27: ..

by Ronald_Reagan on 05/04/2011 08:53

Since I\'m not a Sauer player (I come from AC land) I haven\'t read all of the text on this page, except for the first post.
However, I know that I rarely play Sauer because of all the modes I see are insta and regen, and sometimes coop. I am not exaggerating when I say that I have never seen anyone of the other wonderful modes Sauer has built into it. I have stopped playing because of the lack of variety.
Thus I rarely play Sauer anymore, which is a pity because I really like it otherwise.

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#28: Something that might help

by tman elite on 05/07/2011 05:14

Part of the problem is that there are so many empty servers that the list is overwhelming, and people only bother to look at the top few maps. Everything else is just considered useless clutter.

I know it's not a solution, but I think it could help if the map list could be filtered and sorted based on different criteria. Players could sort by number of players, game mode (alphabetical), map (alphabetical), ping, and server name. There could also be filters to exclude empty servers, full servers, locked servers, coop servers, etc from the list, to make it easier to look through.

The reason I believe this would help is most people would have the empty server filter on, so that they would only be looking at one page of servers instead of 10+ pages. If the coop and locked server filters on on, this list gets even smaller. So if someone decides they don't like what is being played, they can host their own server or join an empty one and suddenly it shows up on everyone's server list. It wouldn't be lumped with the clutter, like it is now.

It doesn't solve the problem, but it might help get people to start playing the old game modes some more. And even if it doesn't, it's still a nice feature to have, right?

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#29: Re: Something that might help

by Zorg on 05/07/2011 10:25, refers to #28

+1

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#30: Re: Something that might help

by Zamwa on 06/08/2011 20:32, refers to #28

+l

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#31: ..

by Drekow on 06/08/2011 21:12

Another problems, i hope enought related, is that sauerbraten works well on small maps an 6 to 10 players, most mode, infact, are played 3vs3 or 4vs4, so the online gameplay does not fit "so much" with what sauerbraten (for me) is.

In the opposite we have a loads of very big maps or very old ones and servers defaulted to 20 players.

When i started playing this game i used to join on calmpark (mode is not an option for newcomes) cause it have a cap of 14 players (so 7vs7 max) and fortunaty it was/is well mastered to protect who really wants to play from cheaters.
I think that without that server wasn't here now.

And yes we need a better serverlist, and a better scoreboard... and possibility to download new maps from server, to have a better variation in map rotation... :D

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#32: ..

by HeWhoPwnsYou on 06/09/2011 04:37

I have been playing for a few years and played the original cube before sauer. After playing the original cube i took a break for a while. Then i found sauer and loved it. That was 3 years ago.

I like all the game modes within sauer but my favorites are capture(with or without regen), FFA, iCtf, and coop edit. Some of the other game modes i dont really quite enjoy. Its just a matter of personal preference. I used to love Venice back when only 15-20 people played at a time and they werent spawn-campers they actually knew what they were doing (elv13, VR1, etc).

But now Venice just flat out sucks. Yes i can still get on and get 120+ frags but the people are all worthless trolls and spawncampers.

The old game modes that arent played very much can be fun, but i would like to play them with more people, not just 2v2 or whatever. If i could get a group(a 8by8 game) to play Capture i would love it. But its probably not going to happen very often. And i find it fun to just hop on Nooblounge say hi to some friends and frag.

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#33: ..

by cbyce on 07/01/2011 11:05

Let me preface my post with this: Cube 2 is a beautifully designed engine. I love it. I am perfectly happy just messing around with the editor by myself. I also admire the code. I've had some fun messing with it, doing things like allowing air control in movement, adding teleport material, letting projectiles pass through teleports, etc. So hopefully, having said all this, people don't think I'm hating on the game with this post.


I am a Quake player. I've been playing Quake for some years, and I am pretty good at it. So when I try any deathmatch game like Sauerbraten, my expectations are pretty high.

Unfortunately, Sauerbraten's gameplay has pretty much no depth and it is not a challenging game at all. You pretty much hold down your "forward" key (strafing slows you down and has an annoying roll effect) to instantly move ridiculously fast and pick up the plethora of items that are seemingly always available. The maps are generally flat with not many walls, and therefore there is not much positional advantage to be had. The weapons are pretty uninteresting and I doubt they are even close to being balanced, but this point is actually the least important.

TL;DR: The game is designed to be extremely simple, and without any challenges to motivate players to improve, it is just boring. If you want to just mindlessly run around shooting at stuff then you might as well just play instagib. You can't really blame people for that.

I hope this post doesn't come off as too harsh (or too long!), because as I said, I love the engine. I just wanted to give my opinion as a competitive deathmatch player as to why people probably aren't playing deathmatch on Sauerbraten.

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#34: Re: ..

by Razgriz on 07/01/2011 15:19, refers to #33

You\'ve made teleport material that allows projectiles though? That\'s goddamn awesome!

Apart from the things i\'d like to see which you describe, it is true that Sauer was made simple. It\'s also the point that not many people are likely to try new maps, just because they\'re \"trained\" to play the same over and over due to how everybody else does that and because they\'re easy to navigate. You could say that what matters most in this game is having a fast and precise aim and the skill to confuse the opponents by popping out on them unexpected. There\'s been a call for a long time for more and newer maps to be added, tried out and have the community decide whether they\'re worth it or not, but that\'s so far as been a dream since the only maps i recall being added are of certified people, like t-chen and nieb.

I\'m not saying their maps are bad, but nieb in particular tends to oversimplify the maps to a point where it seems ridiculous. In his latest map \"garden\", me and jake and some others had taken the liberty of helping design a few things and detail some areas. The walls for one were not completely flat as they are now, nieb decided to remove all those details before releasing the map, and so pretty much all the work we did was cleared. The pathway below the arch now is completely flat.

There is also the problem of nice maps being outdated and looking like they came from a 2000 game. I will relay the map \"complex\" for this example. The geometry complexity is practically non-existent. The textures are really old ones which i believe are from Quake. The lights could use a rework to appear more natural, and the skybox, i find it horrible. Despite its being a favorite for many players, one of the reasons i don\'t play old maps like that one is because they look like that. New blood is needed.

Regarding your comment about weapons, are you referring to the ammo placement or just to their visuals when saying \"uninteresting .. being balanced\"?

Any interest that sparks from this game stems from the ability to easily make maps, which is the main feature of the game. You could say that gameplay comes second, but then again, what\'s the point in making maps that no one can try out? So the challenges to the gameplay also rely heavily on the kind of map you\'re playing on. People always nag about how floors are a bit bumpy or why there is death at certain spots, but making a flat map with no variety and no traps at all is just.. not all that fun, unless you can make it up with stunning work. I really don\'t know what to add at this point, because i like how simple things are kept when it comes to gameplay, and tell you the truth, half of the time i\'m playing i\'m always talking, so it\'s not just mindless shooting when you have people to laugh with and compete.

Pancakes, have one, don\'t give up. :)

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#35: ..

by Drekow on 07/01/2011 20:21

I think cbyce found difficults in FFA and CTF modes, cause the gameplay is very different form a wepons game like quake or UT.

But the game have is own movement, and each maps is rules.

Also powerups like quaddamage and YA are more extreme in this game, if you have it you win the round.
Armor does not add each one, and theren't the small +5armor/healt power up. So you have to pick YA to survive.

The balance in weapons is awesome, you will fast forun a role for grenades, in my opinion the shotgun can be a bit faster at rate of fire.

IS a different game from quake, and you have to learn it to master. Is not quake, is fast, but is a differnt game, wich is awesome in capture mode. :D

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#36: Re: ..

by Zamwa on 07/01/2011 20:23, refers to #34

+1

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