bots slow downs the game

by epsilon_da on 08/08/2007 05:40, 56 messages, last message: 08/16/2007 18:52, 17298 views, last view: 05/18/2024 22:11

Hi.
I am recently testing sauerbraten engine and cube1 of assaultcube and bot really slow downs the game when bots are on the game.
The engine looks really great, maps and everything. But i can not play due to this issue. Also bots and monsters are not a great piece of art so it should not take so much.
I am running windows xp 512Mb and geforce2 which is enought to play withour problems unreal tournamente 2004 with 3 bots. With no problems.
Has anyone the same problem?

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#17: Re: ..

by SheeEttin on 08/09/2007 19:51, refers to #13

That CPU is ancient. You are not going to be able to play any maps with more than... say... five monsters. It just can't handle the processing.

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#18: HAH

by shadow,516 on 08/09/2007 22:30

Sauer's AI consists of two steps: 1) Move in random direction 2) Shoot at player.

Honestly, Sauer has probably one of the dumbest AIs of any game - and it is so by DESIGN. If your computer can't handle Sauer's AI, you have a major problem.

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#19: Re: HAH

by SheeEttin on 08/09/2007 23:23, refers to #18

Believe it or not, it's a bit more complicated.
It's more like "Look around. If you don't see anyone, don't do anything. If you do, go over and shoot them. If you lose them, ran around until you find them."

Since the entire AI is one long function and is called each frame for every monster, it can get processor-heavy, especially with large numbers of monsters (especially if they're "awake").

Check it out for yourself, it's in monster.h, starting on line 82 (ending on 183).

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#20: ..

by epsilon_da on 08/09/2007 23:45

Sad to hear that from you.
Is easiest to solve problems with money, instead i prefer to solve them with my experience, and when dont have it, then try to solve them with a bit of studing.

Sadly, your kind of opinions, makes systems time to time a big waste of resources. In this way, the code never evolve to be better programmed or faster.
You are following Microsoft Philosophy. That could be an insult, but is what it is.

I am not saying that you can fix this problem now, not even that you must try.
My post was only to let you know.
But say that the problem is the gf2, when the problem only manifest when there are bots on the game, which their proceses goes only through the cpu and almost anything through g-card. Also this calculations doesn't compare with any high presition mathematical recursive estructures, needing of unusefull 64bits quadcore.

And as the problems with bots is only on sauerbraten, as with assaultcube i can not even change the map. What about ridiculous?

Optimising or programming can be hard, but it can be done always. And is the best part of programming becouse not anyone can do it good.

Another computer exactly like my of a friend, can run perfectly all current versions of FIFA very good and as i think, FIFA is not very good programmed (UI and the game it self). But it haves exelent graphics and AI and they are able to run on a gf2.

So buy better hardware can be done by any stupidmind with money, programmers should be able to make its code run on the most basic hardware it can.

And as i see sauerbraten is very well programmed on map stuff, place a bot on it, and it is not.

"
I HAVE TRYED Sauer with a Geforce2MX200PciX32 mb and IT IS SLOW 15-35 FPS IS ALL YOUR GOING TO GET OUT OF THAT CARD
"
I tell you, about 5 times, i dont expect more than 30, 20 is good for me, but 3 FPS IS ridiculous.


Close the thread or just not answer unusefull answers, or if you just dont care the others voice, make the forum privative.

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#21: Re: ..

by eihrul on 08/09/2007 23:54, refers to #20

To put this bluntly, epsilon_da, you need to put your money where your mouth is, and just fix the problems instead of talking about them if you are going to be so insistent and pushy about them.

This is open source, submit patches that work (not just in theory, but work after rigorous testing), and then get back to us about how we're crappy programmers afterwards, mmm'kay?

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#22: Re: HAH

by epsilon_da on 08/10/2007 00:03, refers to #19

thanks SheeEttin.

"
Since the entire AI is one long function and is called each frame for every monster, it can get processor-heavy, especially with large numbers of monsters (especially if they're "awake").
"

Unreal engine, handles bots in another way (better than every frame).

They have only one function which they encourage to not use called tick, this function is called on every frame with the ammount of time elapsed between frames. It is almost never used, some times to check only one variable and set it or unset it.

The rest of the AI is handled with a collision radius. There is a base class which manage only collision in a range. Frecuently cilindrical are used as they are very very easy to process.
Collision is when the axis of an entity (players, bots, somemovers) join in a the territory of the collision class. Then this class append in a list a function to call (event). This function list will be called one per one when the frame lapses, i think that they should be threaded.
Then frames are not stoped, never.

Also, some bots share some collision areas, variables, etc. Which can or can not be used for diferent classes of bots. The data is not duplicated, and events are not neither.

Bots out of sight view collision class are not drawn.

This is just one way. But handling bots in every frame, yes, is a very big waste of resources.
Each frame will check for the same conditions every time, condition which doesnt change or doesnt change to much from frame to frame.

There are other ways to handle with bots.

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#23: Re: ..

by epsilon_da on 08/10/2007 00:11, refers to #21

"
To put this bluntly, epsilon_da, you need to put your money where your mouth is, and just fix the problems instead of talking about them if you are going to be so insistent and pushy about them.
"
That was my intention at first.
Sorry but with answers i got, i think that i am not going to waste time. I work very hard and study at the time. And the few time which i have, i was planning to invert it on helping to make this engine better.


"
This is open source, submit patches that work (not just in theory, but work after rigorous testing), and then get back to us about how we're crappy programmers afterwards, mmm'kay?
"
You say crappy programmers, not me. I am very surpiresed for this free engine, are very good, and it is very light in comparation with others free engines.
I am who is feeling insulted here.

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#24: Re: ..

by SheeEttin on 08/10/2007 01:24, refers to #23

Hey, you're the one with the ancient processor. Some things just WILL NOT run well like that.

If you want to make the AI more efficient, knock yourself out. The source is available. Until then, it runs fine for the rest of us.

In short(er): upgrade or fix it yourself, we (they?) aren't going to support hardware like that.

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#25: hmmm

by ATIRULE on 08/10/2007 01:40

I DONT think arrd/eihrul are going to rewrite sauers bot code just for one person It works for everyone else


As the old saying go\'s If it Aint Broke Dont Fix it

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#26: Re: ..

by eihrul on 08/10/2007 05:22, refers to #23

Please go back and examine the tone of your posts in the context of your relatively new presence here.

You are basically coming here and saying, "Well, this is bad, and UT is good and can do this easily." over and over. What impression are we supposed to get from you? You have as yet not even proposed to help at all, at least not until after I mentioned it.

And now you wish us to feel sorry that now you don't want to help anymore? If you wish to help, just help, but please don't rub stuff in people's faces on this forum or you will pretty much get swarmed with ill-will from forum members. Fan-boyism is not treated kindly here.

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#27: ..

by Passa on 08/10/2007 08:11

"This is open source"

eihrul's first post should have ended here. It's open source. You can demand nothing, let alone compare Sauerbraten, written by a bunch of guys when they aren't working their day jobs to Unreal Tournament 2004, a commercial game developed by hundreds of people who get up in the morning and go to work to make games.

AI lags? Mate, I have had no problems on an Athlon 1700+ system. Its not the 'AI'. Its your GPU. The monster models slow down the game, when you're in an SP map with many of them, that's what happens. It lags, you have a GeForce 2, what can you expect. The GeForce 2 has no occlusion query support and SP maps tend to be MUCH larger than MP maps.

Not to mention, if you're going to get all 'OMG guys UT2k4 kills your game muahahahaha..', technically speaking Sauerbraten has more advanced shader features than UT2004. Please ask someone with a GPU that supports shaders to show you the difference between Sauerbraten on thor or aqueducts and Unreal Tournament 2004 on any map you want.

The short end of the stick is, your attitude sucks, and you're making mine suck too.. your system can't run Sauerbraten acceptably, and rubbing your hands together chanting random passages from the Koran in Latin while crushing grapes with your feet won't make the game run on your system.

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#28: ..

by epsilon_da on 08/10/2007 15:33

ok. thanks anyway.


80 fps playing alone in tremulous, 50+ on inet

"
If you want to make the AI more efficient, knock yourself out. The source is available. Until then, it runs fine for the rest of us.
"
With the current system. A basic question like ¿Does the player move? runs every frame. That is in yours computers about 70+ times persecond?
how much do you move in a second?
This is not just AI. And also reduces the performance in your machine.

"
I DONT think arrd/eihrul are going to rewrite sauers bot code just for one person It works for everyone else
"
I wouldn't neither. But as i say, "every frame" is wasting resources, this is too much for every body. "I" can not run the game, but "you" could run it even better with this fixes.


"
As the old saying go\'s If it Aint Broke Dont Fix it
"
Windows is never broken when i first install it.
And things shouldnt only works. Should work in the best possible way.


"
Please go back and examine the tone of your posts in the context of your relatively new presence here.
"
I apologise, i dont talk english as good as you.
But at the first some of you were trying to help me and other just post "this post is ridiculous" as saying "his author is the dumbest dumb".


Seems a "happy" comunity, sorry if i make disturbs, this was not my intention. My only intention was to try to do a bug report (more than one if you reed) and maybe if i like the comunity and the direction of the game and if you let me, try to help on the developing.
So i should writed at the first every intention of mi life, so you can know me before do a bug report.
The best i can do as a simple user to return some feedback is to inform when and how i find a bug. I have done that.

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#29: Re: ..

by SheeEttin on 08/10/2007 16:12, refers to #28

Uh, if you're smart, you move a lot in one second. Sliths do a lot of damage, and with an instant-hit weapon. If you don't move, you're dead.

And on Windows... Windows is inherently broken. The premise of the entire OS is for you to spend. Game doesn't run well on your hardware? Well, buy a new CPU! Oh, but you'll need a new copy of Windows. One copy per CPU.

See what I mean?

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#30: Re: ..

by tentus_ on 08/10/2007 18:52, refers to #28

I suggest a peace offering. Try making a version of Sauer in which the user can choose to lower the quality of the AI- if I understand what you're saying correctly (I might not, your english is difficult to decipher):

You want to be able to turn the number of AI runs down from 1 per frame to 1 per X frames. If the user could specify X in a cfg, moving it from the default 1 to say 4, then your theory is that it'll fix your bottleneck.


As eihrul said, give it a shot. See what you can do, the game is open source, people try stuff like this all the time.

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#31: ..

by epsilon_da on 08/11/2007 02:34

"
Try making a version of Sauer in which the user can choose to lower the quality of the AI
"
Lower quality not. The same with much less resources.

"
(I might not, your english is difficult to decipher):
"
Sorry for my english. :(


"
You want to be able to turn the number of AI runs down from 1 per frame to 1 per X frames. If the user could specify X in a cfg, moving it from the default 1 to say 4, then your theory is that it'll fix your bottleneck.
"
I was thinking on doing something like that. making one botupdate every X frames.
I have now from ~30 frames to 3 frames with bots (30/3=10) 10 times slower.
Making this, should make it much more evident.
Maybe every 30 frames one botupdate, shouldnt affect too much to bot AI on 70+ FPSs computers, not too much code to write. But i have to read too much code just to find where do i have to add 3 or 4 lines and just to prove my point to people how despise my opinion.
Can you tell me what file is it?
Or what file handles per frame calls?



SheeEttin:
No need to insult.
You dont move too much if you divide the movemente per 70+ frames you have. And if you are not moving at all.
Sauerbraten at now is no reason to buy new hardware. Not enought fun, and i know now that it will not use my hardware eficiently.
Ah. In argentina nobody buy software.

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#32: Re: ..

by SheeEttin on 08/11/2007 03:15, refers to #31

No insult intended.

But still, since it also handles aiming (I'm pretty sure it does, I don't have it up right now), perhaps about every half-second or so ((FPS/2)th frame) would be better?
If that's not possible, every 30 frames would be about right.

I'm not familiar with this type of thing at all. I don't even know any programming languages (a tiny bit of Perl, though). I must learn one of these days.

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#33: Re: ..

by fsadfdasfadsfconorjronronropkirkpatrickdkfhadskjfhkdjsafhkas on 08/11/2007 03:39, refers to #15

ATIRULE: Calm down! Holy ****!

Your video card *will* be brought down to it's knees! That card is old! They don't make 9XXX series anymore ( I don't think ) they are onto HD 2900XT!


(And I told *him* to calm down!)

I used to run sauerbraten on a GF2 at 70FPS with everything off and at 640x480.

It was overclocked.

Now it runs any 3d game for 5 seconds then glitches and locks up :P (Even Doom II!)

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#34: ..

by Passa on 08/11/2007 03:44

""I" can not run the game, but "you" could run it even better with this fixes."

I have had no problems on low end systems with Sauerbraten. Really, IMO the AI isn't lagging your game, its the actual monster models.

"And on Windows... Windows is inherently broken. The premise of the entire OS is for you to spend. Game doesn't run well on your hardware? Well, buy a new CPU! Oh, but you'll need a new copy of Windows. One copy per CPU."

This isn't a OS war thread, don't turn it into one. And I don't like mis-informed people, so please understand that if you're not an idiot, Windows won't break on you. And I have never had a complaint about the activation system, I just give MS a ring on a toll free number and they will reactivate it for me, no matter how many times I have activated the software in the past.

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#35: Re: ..

by SheeEttin on 08/11/2007 05:46, refers to #34

I wasn't trying to turn it into an OS war.

And I admit, I was exaggerating a little. The stories, though... horrible.

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#36: Re: ..

by ATIRULE on 08/11/2007 05:50, refers to #34

omg stop hateing windows for no good resion

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