Sauer, old maps and the new gamespeed

by rock.n.rol on 06/20/2007 18:27, 31 messages, last message: 06/25/2007 04:46, 9020 views, last view: 05/05/2024 09:45

Hi all !

I asked myself, if there are more players who love this game like i do and are annoyed of the new gamespeed ?

Really, most of the older maps like metl2, metl3, nmp8_d etc. were perfect playable before, but since the gamespeed has been increased, i recognized that they have become almost unplayable.

The jumps are too long now, dodging between walls has become a real pain, and riflejumps on most maps are not necessary anymore.

When i read the changelog of the spring release, i can see:

* changed experimental movement speedup code to include both jumping & forward independently (see game.html)

So, i really hope it was just temporarily and experimental, and the developers will change it back, because most of the sauer maps weren´t designed for this kind of speed.

I´m really interested in HOW MANY players think the same, because i just can´t believe that i´m the only one...hopefully ;)

Thanks for your patience and for your replies in advance, hope to meet you online soon !

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#12: ..

by HashBox on 06/21/2007 07:30

I'm a relatively new player of Sauerbraten, but I must say the movement speed of this game is definately something that sets it apart from other FPS's. In my opinion the speed should stay as it is now.

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#13: ..

by Passa on 06/21/2007 10:43

Its all up a rather subtle change, but if there is one thing I don't like its the jumping. I want more air control, and like makkE said, it feels too bunnyhoppish.. but movement speed itself is fine imo.

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#14: Re: ..

by mitaman@dark_work_cave on 06/21/2007 17:40, refers to #4

I have to agree with makkE. Playing my SP maps with the latest engine is just too fast. Maps feel so much smaller now.

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#15: ..

by SanHolo on 06/21/2007 18:26

I must admit I like the new feel for deathmatch after getting used to it. Only drawback is that you are now faster if you jump rather than only run; everyone is hopping around now like crazy.

As for the older maps, they were designed for the old jump-width and surely, many have gotten much easier to play, some even too easy. Good example is metl4 as mIscreant points out or nmp8 where you now can easily jump the gap to the teleport. Even on rock's lostinspace you can almost too easy jump the gaps, but that's not necessarily a drawback.

However, the game is in development, there will be new maps and some of the old maps will be updated, be it with new textures, with grass or with larger gaps.

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#16: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 06/22/2007 07:15, refers to #4

two seperate things happened with the new movement: we fixed the jump, which was horribly broken (it would decellerate most towards the end of the jump, and felt like landing in glue, this most certainly will stay), and we sped up the movement in a controllable way.

the philosophy behind the new faster movement is optimizing the speed-control relationship. Think about it this way: slow movement sucks, because its.. slow. really fast movement sucks because... you'd only bump into things (try gamespeed 1000 on metl4 to see what I mean).

So the truth lies somewhere in between. As anyone who has ever played a good racing game knows, speed is a great sensation. The new system allows speed WITH a lot of control, using strafe as a kind of "air-brake" (cue wipeout). So it gives you the combination of excessive speed, without the collisions usually associated with that.

Yes it requires skill to master. If you are bumping into walls on tighter maps, you haven't mastered it yet. I have extensively tested the new movement on tight maps like metl4 and it feels rather exhilerating when you get it right.

The only reason why you are complaining is because "it's not what I am used to". Yup, any new movement will feel wrong initially, because your muscle memory will do the wrong things.

Sauer was never one to stick with traditions for traditions sake. If you are trying to insult me calling it a techdemo just because its not the gameplay YOU would want... get over it. I can't please everyone at the same time. I care deeply for creating good gameplay. I understand that the FUN in FPS games comes from very intense movement and combat, and I try to optimize those.

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#17: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 06/22/2007 07:19, refers to #16

oh and... the movement speed for the RPG is in no way defined yet... it just defaults to whatever the FPS does for the moment. I am guessing it will most certainly be slower.

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#18: Re: ..

by demosthenes on 06/22/2007 08:30, refers to #16

Quick note about the jumping:

Jump off a cliff. Let go of spacebar or other jump key (Only tested with spacebar). Press and hold spacebar (or other jump key) until after you hit the ground. You jump as soon as you hit the ground!

You can use it to bunny-hop like mad! I wish it required more timing, but it means you can hop across the surface of the water just by letting go and re-pressing the spacebar before the top of your jump, which really moves you along it faster.

That took more text than I hoped.

I find that the movement in Sauer is quite nice where it is. I prefer playing DMSP at gamespeed 150, but for multiplayer speed 100 is just fine, thanks. Maps are easy to navigate, especially when you strafe-brake at the end of a jump (having turned sideways for the next jump to align correctly). It's much easier to brake correctly that way.

A tip - spend some time just running around in metl4 sometime. Or some other map, it doesn't really matter. Run around, jump, whatever. Just practice manuevering through doorways and whatever else gives you trouble until you can do it from muscle memory. :)

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#19: Re: ..

by Drakas on 06/22/2007 12:13, refers to #16

Exactly. People are simply complaining because it is not easy to master something.
Happens everywhere.
People don't want to put effort in to actually play better.
Look at Warsow - this game is all about the movement and skill - you will be slow and crash into walls if you have not mastered it. But the fun only comes when you start increasing your speed and don't hit things anymore - creating an awsome sensation for the gameplay.
I'd love to see more movement tricks in sauer, you know :D

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#20: ..

by sinsky on 06/22/2007 14:33

Emm.. guys, is there a new release or is this stuff in cvs? Or perhaps it's ingame already and couldn't get through my thick skin? (sorry for the dumb question)

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#21: ..

by makkE on 06/22/2007 15:02

Sorry Aard, I must apologize, my choice of words was inappropriate.

On the subject. I just jumped for 1 hour on metl4 and I see what you mean. (strafe-braking). It wasn´t really obvious to me I must admit.

However, I can even be slightly faster if I just land at the junction, turn using mouse+forward, and then jump again.

I mean I can navigate metl4 just as fine without ever touching strafe keys, and since touching (not running or stafing against) walls doesnt take away the speed I fly, I don´t even need to watch not to touch stuff in the first place. (of course I need to know if the walls of the map are nicely clipped such as in metl4 or not)

So here´s my suggestion:

Implement a second kind of jump for speed matters.
It mustn´t be a new key, how about this:

Normal Jump would be less speedy, maybe even a bit lower in height than now (gui jump w/ the glue landing?), meant to be used in infights (as a means of dodge).
The higher and faster jumping atm isn´t too useful when fighting imho.

Double-Tap the jump button and you execute the fast jump. (fast tapping, not like ut´s doublejump or so) If exectued again the right moment at landing, increase speed even a bit more.
Maybe even multiple tap (within a set short timeframe) to gain even more speed).

This would mean you would need more control if you wish to keep the speed you have build up around a corner..

I am not talking about huge speed increases, more like + 15-25 ups per jump or so..

Oh and touching a wall would slow you down to normal jump/forward speed ..

This would add a bit of tricking, and the need to control the speed and watching where to go, while not copying other games (afaik). Not saying the current system was a copy of course, just saying I am not just going "put in q1/q2/q3/cpma/tf/ut and whatnot trix"..

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#22: maps

by rock.n.rol on 06/22/2007 16:08

Hehe, dunno why you all mentioned map metl4, imo this map is still kinda wide enough to move in, also with the new speed. It´s rather maps like metl2, metl3, aard3c, nmp8_d, roughinery etc. which are completely different now.

I know, it´s all just a matter of skill, i agree, but now these maps to me seem more like obstacle courses than enjoyable maps, especially when you play them with more than just 2 players... ;) (Yes, i really liked to play these smaller maps with more ppl in insta, for example, and now i see ppl leaving the servers when these maps are loaded, or they aren´t voted at all anymore)

Whenever i´m trying to make a new map and stay exactly in gridsize, i recognize that it has become too easy now to jump from A to B, there is no timing necessary anymore, which makes me use the double distance now, gridsize 5 has been a perfect choice before, i hope this picture explains it better:

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/285/exampleev6.jpg

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#23: Re: ..

by _Fanatic on 06/22/2007 16:51, refers to #17

Is there or will there be a way for us mappers to set the speed in the map cfg?

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#24: Re: ..

by Passa on 06/22/2007 16:59, refers to #23

Yep, gamespeed 100. In multiplayer? Never, far too exploitable.

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#25: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 06/22/2007 17:36, refers to #21

its not a bad idea to have to do something extra to be able to get the speedup... but I don't want to use extra keys for it, or special taps. Whenever I have played games that required these, they went unused. I prefer to wrap functionality into the defaults.

I still really like the quake 1 system, which doesn't use extra keys, requires lots of skill and has a great speed to control ratio... but its not from a feature, its from a bug, and integrating such weird behaviour into the physics short of copying quake line by line is not really possible.

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#26: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 06/22/2007 17:38, refers to #23

sorry, fanatic, but no. I am a firm believer that mappers (or server admins) setting fundamental game features to their preferences is VERY harmful for gameplay. Playing with a different speed every map is very confusing for a seasoned player.

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#27: Re: ..

by _Fanatic on 06/22/2007 17:38, refers to #24

Not gamespeed, that affects everything. I just want to slow the player speed down in my slow paced wandering RPG style map.

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#28: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 06/22/2007 18:46, refers to #27

well, what gameplay is that map supposed to have? should it be in the fps or rpg?

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#29: Re: ..

by _Fanatic on 06/22/2007 20:07, refers to #28

I'm thinking the RPG side of things.

I understand what you're saying tho (about not making it map specific).

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#30: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 06/22/2007 20:54, refers to #29

like I said, the rpg will have a MUCH slower pace...

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#31: Re: ..

by Khane on 06/23/2007 06:25, refers to #16

Aard, I think the problem isn't in that people aren't used to it. I think that it's that it changes gameplay flow on existing maps, and makes a different skill (the riflejump) a fair bit less usefull. Really. Alot of the maps seem almost TOO easy to move around on now that the jump is better.

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