Sauer, old maps and the new gamespeed

by rock.n.rol on 06/20/2007 18:27, 31 messages, last message: 06/25/2007 04:46, 9094 views, last view: 05/18/2024 16:26

Hi all !

I asked myself, if there are more players who love this game like i do and are annoyed of the new gamespeed ?

Really, most of the older maps like metl2, metl3, nmp8_d etc. were perfect playable before, but since the gamespeed has been increased, i recognized that they have become almost unplayable.

The jumps are too long now, dodging between walls has become a real pain, and riflejumps on most maps are not necessary anymore.

When i read the changelog of the spring release, i can see:

* changed experimental movement speedup code to include both jumping & forward independently (see game.html)

So, i really hope it was just temporarily and experimental, and the developers will change it back, because most of the sauer maps weren´t designed for this kind of speed.

I´m really interested in HOW MANY players think the same, because i just can´t believe that i´m the only one...hopefully ;)

Thanks for your patience and for your replies in advance, hope to meet you online soon !

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#1: ..

by Drakas_ on 06/20/2007 18:33

Gamespeed is still 100, if anything.

I think you are talking about the player's speed.
I don't agree.
In most maps it is much better with the new jump speed.
Basic idea is to adapt to the change.
Game is still in development, heh ;)
I guess that the speed is much better, since it simply makes aiming harder and movement easier - when I played back in the GUI edition, map complex, instagib - there was no way for me to run away quickly - all you can do is just get lucky by not getting shot :-)

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#2: ..

by _Fanatic on 06/20/2007 19:30

I kind of agree. The player speed is too fast for the wandering RPG type map I'm currently working on. I don't want it to be as slow as Thief, but it makes it hard to "walk" through a house or a narrow indoor type of area. You miss a lot.

Would be nice to have a walk or run mode, but that's probably very specific to my style of editing and the type of mood I set for my maps.

For regular old DM, the new player speed is nice, maybe a little too fast for tighter maps.

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#3: ..

by Geartrooper on 06/20/2007 21:11

Roughinery has become nigh unplayable. But I like the gamespeed. I wonder if gamespeed could be configurable in the .cfg for each map to add more control.

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#4: ..

by makkE on 06/20/2007 21:20

I agree, the new "Movement" feels cheap, sketchy, and above all I completely fail to understand the explanation given in the readme.

Whoever needs to switch to strafing now to "get around the corner with more control" should play CS, not Sauerbraten.

When airbourne, strafing doesnt give me any control either, all it does is almost instantly stop me.

Strafing should be sped up rather than toned down to a mere hypothetical "speed control"...

Either implement a system that requires skill to master, or go back to the old physics, that´s my opinion. This feels too much like wannabe bunnyhopping.

And last but not least, yes it does break some maps, wich is bad. The worst part is that you can´t choose NOT to jump faster.

Sorry for the harsh words, but I am starting to miss focus on gameplay in Sauerbraten badly. Maybe it´s just a tech demo after all.

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#5: ..

by miscreant@home on 06/20/2007 22:18

I have to agree. The new runspeed/jumping makes maps like metl2 frustrating to navigate, since walking around consists of turning constantly to avoid walls and obstacles.

Jumps which used to require skill are now simple to execute, making many maps feel too cramped. For example, on metl4 it's possible to jump over the open space to get the quad.

Overall, it feels like the scale is wrong now in many maps.

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#6: ..

by Julius on 06/20/2007 23:08

Hmm, I think it's quite nice the way it is :)

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#7: ..

by AmGlb on 06/20/2007 23:41, refers to #6

i`m quite happy about the new speed! moved to warsow a few months ago and came back just with the spring release. before this gameplay in sauer always felt like a turtle digesting tons of chewing gum...
for me a little more hectic was very welcome!

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#8: Re: ..

by Drakas on 06/21/2007 00:12, refers to #7

Exactly.
However, Warsow is more about the movement; but I still find that Sauer is as fast as Warsow (of course if you can master Warsow's movement), being fun!

I guess that the speed is really nice since players have to try harder to kill eachother (oh, and yes - I am not so good at ground-to-air shooting (when someone jumps off a platform or sth.), because it is so fast) - and improving one's skills!

For newbies this might be too fast, though.

mIscreant: I agree on most of what you said - but 'not hitting walls' is more of a skill thing rather than game's fault. In Warsow, I am still learning movement - and hit walls all the time (making me slow down rapidlu), but this is sauer - there is nothing to be afraid of :-)

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#9: Re: ..

by rock.n.rol on 06/21/2007 01:49, refers to #8

Hm, i really think you cannot compare these two games. When these maps (metl2 etc) were made, they have been designed for that gamespeed, and now you´re a bit oo fast already for these maps. Look at the warsow maps now and you will see that there is much more space to move in... ;)

I agree too, on some maps it´s nice to have it some faster, i also don´t like to run for ages until i meet my opponent on the map, but what shall we do now ? Stop playing narrow maps ? Redesign them ?

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#10: ..

by Zorro_hates_cookies2 on 06/21/2007 01:53

The thing is that these maps have ALOT of time and effort invested in them. Remaking them will take several months of work from a dozen people

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#11: ..

by HashBox on 06/21/2007 07:18

I'm a relatively new player of Sauerbraten, but I must say the movement speed of this game is definately something that sets it apart from other FPS's. In my opinion the speed should stay as it is now.

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#12: ..

by HashBox on 06/21/2007 07:30

I'm a relatively new player of Sauerbraten, but I must say the movement speed of this game is definately something that sets it apart from other FPS's. In my opinion the speed should stay as it is now.

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#13: ..

by Passa on 06/21/2007 10:43

Its all up a rather subtle change, but if there is one thing I don't like its the jumping. I want more air control, and like makkE said, it feels too bunnyhoppish.. but movement speed itself is fine imo.

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#14: Re: ..

by mitaman@dark_work_cave on 06/21/2007 17:40, refers to #4

I have to agree with makkE. Playing my SP maps with the latest engine is just too fast. Maps feel so much smaller now.

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#15: ..

by SanHolo on 06/21/2007 18:26

I must admit I like the new feel for deathmatch after getting used to it. Only drawback is that you are now faster if you jump rather than only run; everyone is hopping around now like crazy.

As for the older maps, they were designed for the old jump-width and surely, many have gotten much easier to play, some even too easy. Good example is metl4 as mIscreant points out or nmp8 where you now can easily jump the gap to the teleport. Even on rock's lostinspace you can almost too easy jump the gaps, but that's not necessarily a drawback.

However, the game is in development, there will be new maps and some of the old maps will be updated, be it with new textures, with grass or with larger gaps.

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#16: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 06/22/2007 07:15, refers to #4

two seperate things happened with the new movement: we fixed the jump, which was horribly broken (it would decellerate most towards the end of the jump, and felt like landing in glue, this most certainly will stay), and we sped up the movement in a controllable way.

the philosophy behind the new faster movement is optimizing the speed-control relationship. Think about it this way: slow movement sucks, because its.. slow. really fast movement sucks because... you'd only bump into things (try gamespeed 1000 on metl4 to see what I mean).

So the truth lies somewhere in between. As anyone who has ever played a good racing game knows, speed is a great sensation. The new system allows speed WITH a lot of control, using strafe as a kind of "air-brake" (cue wipeout). So it gives you the combination of excessive speed, without the collisions usually associated with that.

Yes it requires skill to master. If you are bumping into walls on tighter maps, you haven't mastered it yet. I have extensively tested the new movement on tight maps like metl4 and it feels rather exhilerating when you get it right.

The only reason why you are complaining is because "it's not what I am used to". Yup, any new movement will feel wrong initially, because your muscle memory will do the wrong things.

Sauer was never one to stick with traditions for traditions sake. If you are trying to insult me calling it a techdemo just because its not the gameplay YOU would want... get over it. I can't please everyone at the same time. I care deeply for creating good gameplay. I understand that the FUN in FPS games comes from very intense movement and combat, and I try to optimize those.

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#17: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 06/22/2007 07:19, refers to #16

oh and... the movement speed for the RPG is in no way defined yet... it just defaults to whatever the FPS does for the moment. I am guessing it will most certainly be slower.

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#18: Re: ..

by demosthenes on 06/22/2007 08:30, refers to #16

Quick note about the jumping:

Jump off a cliff. Let go of spacebar or other jump key (Only tested with spacebar). Press and hold spacebar (or other jump key) until after you hit the ground. You jump as soon as you hit the ground!

You can use it to bunny-hop like mad! I wish it required more timing, but it means you can hop across the surface of the water just by letting go and re-pressing the spacebar before the top of your jump, which really moves you along it faster.

That took more text than I hoped.

I find that the movement in Sauer is quite nice where it is. I prefer playing DMSP at gamespeed 150, but for multiplayer speed 100 is just fine, thanks. Maps are easy to navigate, especially when you strafe-brake at the end of a jump (having turned sideways for the next jump to align correctly). It's much easier to brake correctly that way.

A tip - spend some time just running around in metl4 sometime. Or some other map, it doesn't really matter. Run around, jump, whatever. Just practice manuevering through doorways and whatever else gives you trouble until you can do it from muscle memory. :)

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#19: Re: ..

by Drakas on 06/22/2007 12:13, refers to #16

Exactly. People are simply complaining because it is not easy to master something.
Happens everywhere.
People don't want to put effort in to actually play better.
Look at Warsow - this game is all about the movement and skill - you will be slow and crash into walls if you have not mastered it. But the fun only comes when you start increasing your speed and don't hit things anymore - creating an awsome sensation for the gameplay.
I'd love to see more movement tricks in sauer, you know :D

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#20: ..

by sinsky on 06/22/2007 14:33

Emm.. guys, is there a new release or is this stuff in cvs? Or perhaps it's ingame already and couldn't get through my thick skin? (sorry for the dumb question)

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