quad damage discussion :-)

by YG2F on 10/05/2006 13:32, 48 messages, last message: 10/12/2006 17:12, 11693 views, last view: 05/18/2024 20:58

Hi,


I don't like the quad damage, because only those who know where it is can catch it, and usualy "we" catch it again and again because "we" are afraid that an other player catch it :-B




My proposal is not to remove it.

My proposal is that only "weak" players can catch it.

By "weak", i mean, for example, players who has a score bellow the average score.



What do you think about thisq quad damage ?

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#24: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 10/09/2006 20:28, refers to #23

I was actually thinking of doing the reverse, and making them a bit more important yet, because in quite a lot of games people are getting them randomly, and its not affecting the game enough.

I was thinking to let the first one you get be +25, and then every next one be 5 less all the way down to +5.

That way, getting some would be very important, but to keep your advantage, after a while it becomes more important to keep your opponents form them rather than getting them yourself.

Thoughts?

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#25: Re: ..

by SanHolo on 10/09/2006 22:59, refers to #24

You mean, first one who gets the health boost gets +25, second one +20? Or each player has its own count?

That would somehow alter the beginning of each game because everyone wants to be the first of course. I was just thinking of a game-start-delay (to wait until every player has the new map loaded before the game really starts), but since health boosts spawn after a lag that's no problem. Maybe it boosts the player who manages to get the first (and maybe second) health boost a bit too much, he'll be at 160 hp while all others still stay at 100 instead of a 120 vs 100. It would certainly benefit the skilled players.

Oh, and I think the quad is a great advantage, you can easily make 5 frags on one quad-"charge"...

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#26: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 10/10/2006 02:55, refers to #25

everyone would have their own count...

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#27: Quad and Healthboost

by rock.n.rol on 10/10/2006 02:58

I really think that the quad damage can affect a game very strong, think about a 1vs1, if one player has quad and rocket launcher, the other player wouldnt have a chance. he could try to hide or not to respawn of course, but thats already hard.

Also, when i collect 1 single healthboost, other players have to shoot me 5x with a pistol instead of 4x, or imagine the rifle, they would need 2 hits then instead of 1 to frag me, no matter if its +5 or +25.

Maybe it would be a good idea to use a new item which affects the game, like invisibility or doublespeed (lol) ?
or a special weapon (gettin crazy) ?

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#28: Re: Quad and Healthboost

by shadow,516 on 10/10/2006 03:14, refers to #27

hmm, how about two different flavours of ammo for each gun? one more powerful than the other? The powerfull ones could have spikes or something equally gnarly comming out of the ammo boxes ;)

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#29: Re: Quad and Healthboost

by Pxtl on 10/10/2006 04:31, refers to #28

2-different-ammos was done well in WarSow (another opensource FPS, but not from-scratch) - in that game, weapon-pickups are the "weak" ammo, and ammo-pickups are the "strong" ammo... but of course you must have the weapon before you can use the ammo-alone pickups. But Warsow is designed for uber-hardcore gameplay and challenge, so having so many tiers of weapons makes sense. Sauer is about pure DM, so having a single tier of weapons works better.

Imho, keep the +10 boost. It's simple and sensible. Anymore and it becomes overpowered, any less and it becomes unimportant. Any wierder and it becomes overcomplex.

If you really want to make it a bigger deal to grab, how about making it wear both hats? Both +10-max-health AND 100 health (over the max).

And for "new features" - I'd rather see some capture-oriented pickups, eg. turret-mode (makes you immobile but tough) rocket fuel (gives you 5 seconds of flight, cumulative, but can't pick up if over 30), etc.

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#30: Re: Quad and Healthboost

by CrazyTB on 10/10/2006 06:43, refers to #28

> hmm, how about two different flavours of ammo for each gun? one more
> powerful than the other? The powerful ones could have spikes or
> something equally gnarly comming out of the ammo boxes ;)

Like this? ;-)
http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/LOFTDEBS#Serrated_bullet

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#31: Re: ..

by Max of S2D [Fr] on 10/10/2006 12:39, refers to #24

Ah ah, that's a nice idea, Aard.

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#32: Re: ..

by Passa on 10/10/2006 16:44, refers to #24

Sounds good, on paper that is. You put the +25 idea in without much discussion though, and it turned out to be revolutionary :-)

It is rather fun trying to prevent others from getting the +25 (try that on metl3, theres only one, and in an obvious position, its kinda fun when people try to hang around there until it spawns :)

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#33: Re: ..

by CrazyTB on 10/11/2006 02:48, refers to #32

Maybe +25 is too much. Maybe Health boost could add a health ammount inversely proportional to number of frags (or damage) of a player.

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#34: Against the campers

by Max of S2D [Fr] on 10/11/2006 12:45

The less you fight, the less you will have an health bonus.

Good against the campers :p

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#35: ..

by Drakas on 10/11/2006 19:59

What about accuracy and wasted dammage?

Somebody with low accuracy should get a more powerful damage or something like that. Of course, it'd be a better idea as a separate gamemode rather than classic DM.
Low accuracy people can get health bonus, but bigger.


But IMO, quad dammage should only be changed to double dammage and health additions should spawn faster but only be kept for as long as you're alive, just like UT2004.

Changing the game for newbs is not a good idea at all.

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#36: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 10/11/2006 21:56, refers to #35

There seems to be prevalent idea in gamedesign that its a good idea to add features to help newbie players and curb pro players, because the game will be more fun. Quite a few people suggested weird ideas like making powerups available only to the "weaker" players, however that is defined.

Similarly, people seem to think every weapon needs to be the same strength, for "balance".

I don't buy those ideas. At all. I guess these two things is what differentiate hardcore games from casual games.

Games where all weapons are equally powerful and everyone is equally likely to get a kill terribly boring. I want a game where I can find new tactics, new strategies, and gradually get my skill to increase, noticably. I want what I do in game to have an actual effect. I want to feel satisfaction when I get something right, and notice when I do stuff wrong, it shouldn't all feel the same :)

That said, sauer is already way more newbie friendly than say quake. A good weapon is EASY to get, and they all do good damage. Powerups are not a secret for the pros.

Yup, you may get your ass handed to you the first time you play. That means that there's a lot to learn, and a lot of depth to the game.

I know this potentially reduces sauer's popularity, but I want to make a good game, not necessarily the most popular one.

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#37: Amen

by Greywhind on 10/11/2006 22:06

Well put Aard.

I don't really have much of an opinion on the issue, but I certainly understand your point of view. Sounds like a valid strategy.

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#38: Re: ..

by >driAn<. on 10/11/2006 22:21, refers to #36

Didn't you write some article about weapon balancing? I remember reading it a few years ago, the main topic was "retro games".
However, I think there are both sides. Even games that offer nearly equally strong weapons are not just boring. This equality has some cool effect: Because nearly every weapon is quite strong, you use them all.. and depending on the situation (distance, num enemies, etc) you will choose the best suitable. Of course gamers always do that, but this way it becomes really more important to survive.
If the gap between the good and worse weapon is too big, the player will keep his "über" weapon selected. Lets look at Cube (1) as example, only a few people would actually switch from machinegun to rifle, even if there is a mid/big distance between them and the enemy. Thats my personal impression.
Yes, "hard" balance surely makes map control and general tactics more important. I think its all about finding the happy medium.

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#39: Re: ..

by CrazyTB on 10/11/2006 23:28, refers to #38

> and depending on the situation (distance, num enemies, etc) you
> will choose the best suitable.

Hey, I do this on Cube/Sauerbraten. At least on (DM)SP, where I have a little more time to think. :) But I do it also on FFA.

> only a few people would actually switch from machinegun to rifle

Because rifle is slow as hell, and we can get the same damage/accuracy (or even more) using machinegun.
In Sauer, this is a little different, because machinegun is not very precise anymore, and it has smaller ammo than in Cube.

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#40: Re: ..

by >driAn<. on 10/12/2006 00:04, refers to #39

> Because rifle is slow as hell, and we can get the same damage/accuracy (or even more) using machinegun.

Well.. thats what I mean.

> In Sauer, this is a little different, because machinegun is not very precise anymore, and it has smaller ammo than in Cube.

I like sauers balancing, I was referring to Cube _1_.

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#41: Re: ..

by pushplay on 10/12/2006 02:51, refers to #36

The problem is that the collecting of a powerup is seen as something of a random event. You run into the room and if it happens to be there you pick it up and that's good for you. So if it's going to be random anyways why not give it to the weaker guy since he needs the help?

It's not that hardcore gamers want it to be harder to overcome a point deficit, it's that they realize that controlling the powerups is a central focus of the game. Denying your opponent the quad and ya is a skill, one that wins you games. At the highest level of competition everyone has just about the same accuracy, but the best are just better able to run the map, and win the positioning game.

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#42: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 10/12/2006 04:30, refers to #38

driAn, maybe you're thinking about: http://strlen.com/maps/pnf_columns.html
Though I don't think that talks about weapon balancing.

And sauer offers 4 really strong weapons, if not equally so. Each has different strengths and weaknesses in different situations. If you feel the rifle is underpowered, its because you have mostly been playing small indoor maps. On a map like chronos, it probably dominates.

pushplay: powerups are not random in sauer anymore... that's exactly what the announcer voice is for. You don't randomly run into them, you fight for them.

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#43: Re: ..

by pushplay on 10/12/2006 07:58, refers to #42

> pushplay: powerups are not random in sauer anymore... that's exactly what the announcer voice is for. You don't randomly run into them, you fight for them.

Didn't say they ever were.

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