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#15409: One (maybe too big) request for next release

by hypernova on 08/11/2016 04:08

If there's ONE thing I want in the next Sauer release, it is a 3 variable change to the shotgun, to speed up its reload, and reduce its spread. Currently the shotgun take 1.4 seconds to reload, which is so long that it isn't even useful as a finishing weapon in duels, because the enemy will just spawn and kill you before your shotgun has even reloaded. You can fire 14 MG bullets and nearly 2 rockets in the time it takes to fire one shotgun. It also has a spread of '400' (by contrast, the minigun spreads '125' I think, and pistol '75'). At any substantial range, the shotgun is completely useless, and its random spread algorithm combined with the wide spread makes it very unpredictable and fustrating to use even at 'close' range. Setting the shotgun reload to 1000ms and spread to ~250 would massively improve the weapon balance, especially in pickup modes. Currently, 1 box of shotgun ammo is useless compared to a box of MG or rocket ammo. Often even the pistol is more effective. With a change like this, the shotgun finally be able to defend against a rocket user. I know this would be the largest change to Sauer gameplay since the pistol was added, but let's pleeease do this :D Honestly, this is a much bigger issue for me than bugfixes or new features. Thanks!!!

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#15410: Re: One (maybe too big) request for next release

by hypernova on 08/11/2016 15:31, refers to #15409

Note that I'm not just speaking for myself here; this issue has been widely discussed by the playing community for a long time and has not been addressed thus far.

Another note: In the initial cube releases, the shotgun did have a 1 second reload. This was quickly changed to copy the Doom 2 SSG, which has a much longer reload. But in Doom 2, the SSG was Significantly more effective than in Sauer (it was second best to the rocket). Our recent changes in pistol and grenade launcher have greatly improved their balance, but in turn have made the shotgun obsolete. This is one reason why efficiency is much more popular than pickup: the current shotgun is decent if you also have other weapons, but useless if it's all you have.

Let's resurrect the culture of Shotgun Power!
#shotgunpower

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#15411: ..

by chasester on 08/11/2016 21:41

Shouldnt all the weapons be most useful in some situation. Meaning there is a reason for every weapon, more then just adding to the number of weapons in the game. Having a "best" weapon seems like there must be a problem with the weight of weapons in the game. Also adding reloading I feel could significantly reduce the power of weapons like the rocket launcher, which seems to be exclusively most powerful in almost every situation.

chasester

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#15412: Re: ..

by hypernova on 08/11/2016 22:17, refers to #15411

This is exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm not wanting to make the shotgun a 'best weapon', but simply trying to bring it up to the level of the others. I think the rocket is actually decently balanced, what breaks this is maps which have 2 right next to each other. Any decent MG user (with >70% accuracy at close range) can destroy a rocket user in a couple seconds. At any range where the rocket takes more than a second to hit, the rifle is far superior. MG is strong to about the same range as the rocket. Nades are extremely effective for spamming or area damage. Pistol is awesome. Chainsaw is useless but who cares :D Its range is so short you cannot hit someone if you are standing on their head.
Also in this version of Sauer, players now spawn with 25 more hp in ffa modes. The only advantage of a shotgun besides a finishing weapon is its 1-shot potential, and this makes it more difficult. It's really hard to 1-shot 125 hp at more than 5-8 cubes away. I don't think we should reduce the damage of the shotgun, even if we speed up its reload and reduce spread. The most awesome feeling is when you 1-shot a player in efficiency with 200 damage :D

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#15413: Re: ..

by Zamwa on 08/12/2016 16:01, refers to #15412

In some instances the fire rate is already too high when being shot at trying to get close in a narrow passage! Yet in a open area's it's slow enough you can move in on them! I'm with Chasester weapons unique usage is better than one weapon fits all!

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#15414: Re: ..

by hypernova on 08/12/2016 16:58, refers to #15413

I never promoted a 'one weapon fits all' idea xD
If so, we can talk about the MG, not the shotgun :D
Think about it this way: does anyone want to 1v1 me with only infinite shotgun ammo, while I have only infinite MG ammo? The ONLY way you'd be able to get a frag is if you were camping behind a wall and I happened to stand in front of you for a one-shot.
The MG randomness is lower, and there is actually a skill in 'predicting' its randomness for better accuracy.

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#15415: Re: ..

by Zamwa on 08/13/2016 16:08, refers to #15414

I like to think of it like "rock paper scissors" when being fired at My favorite choice of weapon is going to be: strong vs weak

sniper rifle -> machine gun
machine gun -> shotgun
shotgun -> sniper rifle
chainsaw -> luck

base attack: rocket launcher
base defense: grenade launcher

This is the approach a map maker could use for weapon spawns but as you mention before gets neglected for a much needed dynamic battle to happen!

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#15416: Re: ..

by hypernova on 08/16/2016 22:37, refers to #15415

This weekend I will do a test with different shotgun spreads and distances, comparing the current one to an improved version. I'll post the numbers here when I'm done.

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#15417: Re: ..

by hypernova on 08/21/2016 00:55, refers to #15416

Ok I did a little test with shotgun spread and here's what I found.

all distance = 10 cubes

spread=400 (current)
- 50, 100, 60, 80, 60, 80
avg = 71

spread=300
- 90, 90, 120, 160, 110, 120, 70, 80
avg = 105

spread=200
- 160, 110, 130, 130
avg = 132

What do you guys think is a good shotgun spread?

(btw to correct a mistake from my previous post, MG spreads 100 and pistol 50)

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#15418: Re: ..

by hypernova on 08/21/2016 14:34, refers to #15417

Also note how the randomness factor is lower with a smaller spread. At the current spread, we can see a 50% variability.

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#15419: ..

by Zamwa on 08/21/2016 20:43

What the shotgun is ideal for is the shotgun requires you to switch from a play style of wait for target to come into sight to a mode of seek and destroy! There's an important movement formula behind this, you need to wait it out and you need to move in and jump a-wall like!
Moving around very close with any other weapon makes you a bad aim so a shotgun is meant to be forgiving with better spread! Your mod would mess up a lot of the usefulness in this style!

If you get around to it could you test a longer reload with a single shot choice to fire two ammo and (single mode none switchable) only half second delay between them! Split damage to 150 each shot!
I'd like to see ammo usage pair up with how dual barrel shotguns work in real life! That's a total of four ammo per reload! The first visual fire muzzle could fire from the bottom barrels then the top to jive with the wide spread!

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#15420: ..

by Zamwa on 08/21/2016 21:20

Sorry meant like two shots per reload with four ammo consumed!

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#15421: Re: ..

by hypernova on 08/22/2016 15:38, refers to #15420

Hi Zamwa, thanks for your input. But I'm wondering, have you played Sauer at the competitive level before? In 99% of situations, it is impossible to use the shotgun in the way you described (moving in closer before taking a shot). The other player with MG and rockets can easily deal 300 damage before you can even get close enough to do a decent damage with the shotgun. Also, you mention that a smaller spread would make the shotgun harder to hit with. Any decent Sauer player can hit between 40-60% with a rifle. We should have no problem aiming a shotgun at close range, if so, then there are larger problems to deal with :)
It's funny that the two games I play are Sauerbraten (less recently) and Half-Life 2 Deathmatch, which both have shotguns, but are completely different. I have heard from the pro community about Sauer's shotgun: "worst shotgun in the history of shotguns" while in HL2DM I hear "best shotgun of any game I've played". Why don't we take something we know that works, and use it in Sauer? The last gameplay changes to Sauer were well accepted and liked. I suppose I should create a poll somewhere and see what people think.
I'll leave this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsh70HWMbvE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdH4NZBDnEQ&feature=youtu.be
Unfortunately you will never see something this awesome in Sauer. It is impossible due to the high spread and reload time :(

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#15422: Re: ..

by Zamwa on 08/23/2016 15:31, refers to #15421

Perhaps keep normal spread and reload and have 2 x 300 damage + half second delay = deadly short to medium range non-spammer! Would that be more fun or what?! :")

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#15423: Re: ..

by hypernova on 08/25/2016 22:33, refers to #15422

I agree that would be cool, but unfortunately this will probably never happen. Sauer does not have secondary modes for weapons, and having a secondary for only shotgun would be weird.

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#15424: Re: ..

by Zamwa on 08/27/2016 16:47, refers to #15423

No secondary! There is definitely more to do than just having simply put a controlled burst fire! It seems you can't do it for testing though! I would die to play with a prototype! :"(

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#15425: Re: Is it safe?

by bobbiescap on 09/06/2016 11:07, refers to #15407

The best way to ensure that you have a genuine file is to verify it with a checksum, I'm not sure if they are offered with Sauerbraten, but most open source projects use them for data security.

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#15426: Re: ..

by bobbiescap on 09/06/2016 11:27, refers to #15421

Maybe it needs to have a short-barrel, double barrel gun, which are super fast for the first two shots, but slow to reload, hopeless at range, but devastating up close, a bit like the current one; and add a pump action, super fast for the first (say) seven, then slow to reload, but the gun can be used when partially reloaded, it has reasonable range, but can be dicey up close because of the longer barrel being easy to grab. A bit like the HL2 one.

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#15427: How to give playermodel a vwep?

by spacetoast on 09/12/2016 06:30

Hi, I have converted a few old md2 (Quake 2) playermodels to sauerbraten, everything is fine except the characters don't hold any weapons. (However they come with weapon models, yet I haven't found a way to add them to the player's model)

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#15428: Porting model question

by spacetoast on 09/13/2016 04:32

Hey-a, I ported a Quake 2 .md2 playermodel to the game and everything works except for the fact the playermodel drags the gun with its feet and when you switch guns the walking animation no longer works.

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