Eisenstern : The RPG project

by Aardappel_ on 05/10/2006 01:20, 317 messages, last message: 12/12/2010 14:57, 205208 views, last view: 12/09/2021 04:10, closed on 12/12/2010 15:10

As you all know, we have been silently prototyping the RPG project for a while now, mainly in the form of Levels and design.

Today marks the day of the more official start of the project, with a name, a domain, and something hinting at a game design.

Check out the website: http://eisenstern.com/

Particularly note the design notes linked from that page. If you want to have your say about the direction this RPG is going, or feel that certain features "won't work well", then now is a good time to discuss that, in this thread :)

Just because we have a website doesn't mean that we should start announcing this project everywhere, unlike most people, I don't like advertising thing that I am going to do, I prefer showing what I have done :) But it is good to have a home for the project, because we'll shift a lot of our focus towards it as the FPS is getting more mature.

I will be doing some of the core gamecode for this project soon, so people can start to play around with it.

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#205: Re: eisenstern ideas

by shadow,516 on 09/14/2007 15:25, refers to #204

I was thinking more along the lines of "dude, it's nowhere near done", but yeah, those too

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#206: ..

by Quin on 09/14/2007 18:31

The last real change to Eisenstern's code was well over six months ago. It'd be further along if.. ah forget about it.

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#207: Re: ..

by demosthenes on 09/14/2007 20:36, refers to #206

What can we do to aid the speed of development?

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#208: Re: ..

by SheeEttin on 09/14/2007 21:02, refers to #207

Learn C++ and help code.

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#209: Re: How to Run

by tman_elite on 09/14/2007 21:34, refers to #202

Thanks it works. It's pretty slow though, around 5 fps and freezes for like 10 seconds a lot. I think it's just my computer though.

And by the way, I think it's pretty cool. It's quite annoying to start out right next to that golem though... and he killed the nman or whatever who sells stuff...

But it looks like it'll be really great.

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#210: Re: ..

by Quin on 09/14/2007 21:48, refers to #208

That won't really help, I've tried offering this in the past. After waiting several weeks to be given a task to take on, I suggested some myself. I was then told that the only changes I was allowed to make were to the script.

Aard has a grand and specific vision for Eisenstern that only he can implement, because everyone else who is actually able to contribute code to Sauerbraten has no interest in it. That, and the scripting functionality is far from mature enough to do anything useful with.

This is just another example of "Open Source" clashing with "Closed Development".

If you really want to help Sauerbraten (and contribute to Eisenstern by means of mutual exchange) there's plenty to be done; from models to sounds to any other asset you can think of that'll be useful.

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#211: Re: ..

by AnimateDream on 09/14/2007 22:08

Just post your own changes to the code somewhere. The Eisenstern project can pass up a good opportunity or not, but as long as its open source. If your code generates more interest than vanilla Eisenstern you'll find it becomes the focal point of new developement. The Eisenstern project can ignore your new code or not, it shouldn't be too hard to merge new changes from the official Eisenstern engine. The code is not only very modular but very short at the moment for eisenstern.

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#212: ..

by makkE on 09/14/2007 22:49

The bottleneck to Eisenstern developement is not the code - itīs the amount of artwork and mapping/designing quests that holds it back.

The problem though lies in the design: the absence of leveling up - imho, that kills the rpg aspect to it, thus, I wonīt waste my time on working for a game 85% of the target audience will reject anyways.. You canīt call it RPG without character developement.

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#213: Re: ..

by tman_elite on 09/15/2007 00:30, refers to #212

It's possible to have an RPG without leveling up, as long as you have some sort of character development (for example, after a quest choose between an item that increases melee or one that increases magic) but it needs to have at least some kind of story that you may or may not choose to follow. Or different paths you can choose (like in many games "light" or "dark" side). I also like miscellaneous quests (like the current "apple thing" but bigger) that random people can give you, but I think it should have a main storyline. Otherwise it's just a FPS with items...

I think Morrowind was great in this aspect, as it had a main quest series that you didn't even have to do, but it was always there as a possibility. And they had plenty of "side quests" to keep you occupied.

Anyway, this is just my opinion. I know that that the games not even close to completion, but I am just stating a possible direction for it to go. Obviously it's not going to be as big or complex as Morrowind but the general concept is the same.

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#214: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 09/15/2007 01:15, refers to #210

Quin, I don't want this to be another public flamewar, but you are misrepresenting things tremendously.

Way back when, you had expressed interested helping us directly with the code on the project. At the time I had most bases covered, and what I needed help with was the rpg. I asked if you were interested, and spend a long time explaining exactly what kind of work was required. Followed by weeks of no action by you. When I enquired, you still appeared interested, I again spend a while talking to you in terms of what you could be doing, again followed by weeks of nothing from you. At that point I gave up on trying to work with you, my time is too valuable to invest lots of time in people that provide no output.

So maybe how you wish to work doesn't match with our development methods. But if thats the case, you sure as hell never told me, I can't guess from your silence that you are waiting for some magical cue from me as to what to work on next. Sauer needs self-sufficient developers that understand our project enough such that they can produce quality content (code, script, levels, whatever) with only occasional direction from me or eihrul. If I have to spec out every step its faster to do it myself.

So fair enough if its not a fit for you. But don't represent this as evil aard being overly controlling, as I had (and still have) full intention of making the rpg much more open to allow game design to be done by scripters and level designers, very unlike sauerbraten, the fps, whose gamedesign is indeed controlled 100% by me.

If you haven't noticed, the C++ gameplay code for the rpg has been carefully designed to be more of an RPGish game toolkit than an actual game. The intention is that almost everything is defined in script, so every eisenstern map can define its own gameplay. I have visions of different eisenstern maps spanning the spectrum from almost FPS games to rich RPG story experiences, and everything in between (even GTA clones), all at the whim of the level designer. In a sense it will be the easiest moddable game, provided the gameplay can fit within an rpg-ish idea.

As for development plans, I have certainly given this some thought in recent times, and its clear to me that we are maybe taking on a slightly too big chunk of work, certainly in terms of content. So my intention is to simplify the gameplay yet again, yet more towards an RPG-FPS rather than a full RPG game. Then we can at least make something thats fun to play with the current content and maps, and the additional more complex features can then wait till later. I will eventually do this myself, but that may test people's patience... if I find a capable programmer to work on it, it may speed up. We'll see.

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#215: ..

by Captain_Ahab on 09/15/2007 01:20

I thinking 'leveling up' is a waste. All it does is encourage players to run around and kill/steal things instead of focusing on the story-line. A good RPG focuses on the story, not the gameplay rules. In the pen/paper RPG world, obsession with 'leveling up' is called "munchkin-ism".

( and yes, I'm working on RPG game; not Eisenstern though. I'm almost done with mapping one section of it and ready to begin on some scripting stuff. I want to try and make it 'winnable' without having to kill anything even. )

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#216: Re: ..

by shadow,516 on 09/15/2007 01:20, refers to #214

Really, I was thinking about your ideas of not leveling up recently, and as I was playing Stalker, I was thinking "damn, this works really well if done right".

But I am totally stoked about the idea of fully open scripting (you know how much I love abusing that stuff).

Keep goin Aard! I'm pushing my RPG map as fast as I can while still working on the FPS.

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#217: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 09/15/2007 01:22, refers to #212

makke, you are making premature judgements... you CAN have character development, just it works differently from a regular RPG. You will have stats that increase as you progress thru the game, and what stats increase is fully under your control.

Rather than selecting what skill you want to increase upon a level up as in most rpgs, you determine these skills by the items you have. This has roughly the same effect, except now you can change your skill balance, and how you acquire "experience" is more flexible too, as items can be found, looted, stolen, traded, combined etc.

This system both simplifies the gameplay system and makes gaming more creative, i.e. allows many different solutions to the same goal. It allows different playing styles, i.e. hoarding, stealing, rambo, tactical etc.

Yup its not proven... but I'll be damned if making an rpg just means cloning oblivian... especially since we don't have the resources to do so.

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#218: Re: ..

by Quin on 09/15/2007 03:51, refers to #214

I have no desire to argue either, once again I have inferred too much from my personal experiences.

To be honest, this whole issue was the cause of the tension to begin with. I was (and still am to a degree) eager to develop for Sauerbraten, and have settled for doing my own 'tribute' mod in the process, along with helping, developing, and creating for the community.

I knew your goals for Eisenstern right from the start, and even used it as a basis to suggest things I could be working on in the code. You asked me to not touch the code and do everything in script, which I agonised over it for two weeks, trying to come up with something that would make you happy, before finally deciding that there's not enough code to drive the script. I truly did want to help, but without you around to drive the engine development forward (as I wasn't allowed to, and eihrul isn't interested in the RPG) there was nothing I could do for Eisenstern with my limited access.

I dunno, I tried to express this a few times but only ended up getting into arguments with you. I just did what you did in the end and gave up trying. I really do wish we could understand these facts about each other and accept them, but perhaps we're just too different.

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#219: Re: ..

by absinth on 09/15/2007 14:38, refers to #212

>the absence of leveling up - imho, that kills the rpg aspect to it

I'm looking forward to an RPG that gets rid of the most boring part.
the most interesting aspect of RPGs to me is the immersion in and interaction with the virtual reality, the nature, creatures, peoples, quests, stories, background and setting. the "interactive novel" or "holodeck adventure" aspect. i couldn't care less about what my stats or level are or how much fire damage my staff does.

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#220: Re: ..

by Quin on 09/15/2007 22:10, refers to #219

Yeah, that's a great point. The whole "taking the focus awake from attributes" is the exact reason Eisenstern intrigued me.

I used to play role playing games when I was younger (pen and paper style) and most systems focus on attributes and skills, I ended up writing a whole system myself from scratch for us which took focus away from these and more on the story line (I had a flair for comedic role playing).

Once the scripts can actually drive a proper adventure I can see people having alot of fun both mapping/scripting strange things and playing those same maps.

People underestimate CubeScript 'cause not much is done with it yet (as far as customisation goes), but if you take a look at say the script driven enemies in my ssp game, you'd know what I mean.

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#221: ..

by makkE on 09/15/2007 22:46

It might not be of much relevance to the actual game mechanics if the "getting better" is achieved by items alone or also by using levels, stats, attributes...

It just feels strange to me, thatīs all.
I simply dont want to be only the sum of my posessions.

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#222: Re: ..

by tman_elite on 09/16/2007 01:25, refers to #221

Is this a game problem or a moral problem... just kidding.

Maybe you could have like "perminant" increased stats that you can't sell, but you only get them by completing main quests or something.

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#223: Re: ..

by Quin on 09/16/2007 02:29, refers to #221

What are we in real life, if not that? :P

Though the idea of 'learned skills' could be a good idea to investigate, wouldn't it?

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#224: ..

by tentus_ on 09/16/2007 04:45

I'm quite looking forward to making a map for Eisenstern, on the basis that I'll be able to have the players "level up" the way I like the most. I spent a lot of time during my Cube Legends days daydreaming about ways to make the player level up- these dreams now have a chance of actually appearing.

A problem is that what I want will probably be quite different from what other people like (I, for one, really enjoy getting steadily more powerful). We'll need a good (consistent) way for the player to look up the current design. I'm thinking that it'd be some simple paragraph that shows up in a tab beside the inventory.

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