ai

by captmellow on 05/24/2002 09:00, 8 messages, last message: 05/26/2002 15:16, 1364 views, last view: 05/04/2024 15:24

The monsters need to have some sort of waypoint entities to help them find their way up stairs when the player is on a ledge above. Some kind of trigger that, if they run into it on the way to the player, it would help steer them to the best way. Or some kind of height difference check that would then cause them to head for the pathnode. As it is, they always fall to the lowest part of the map & wind up stuck there, slowing things down. I think it\'s generally been proven that manually placed (by the mapper) pathnodes are the least expensive way to get the smartest navigation. The dynamic map learning algos burn too many cycles, & with poor results. Good roaming ai is a must-have for good paced games.

Also, the vision needs to be tweaked. The monsters see you from way across the map, & IMO only the yellow rifle guy should be able to do so. Vision range/alertness should be a monster variable.

Along the lines of nodes, some sort of patrol nodes would be good (heck, they were even in the original wolf3d).

Re: the prohibitively high poly dragon model, I recall DoomIII models being initially created super high poly & then scaled down, so it stands to reason that the same could be done to the dragon model.

Another node idea would be jump points, where jumping monsters would jump to above ledge, a la UT\'s impact hammer jump nodes. I think having certain monsters jumping up to you when you would expect them to remain stuck below would do much to facilitate the hectic pace.

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#1: whoops

by captmellow on 05/24/2002 09:12

The preceding was supposed to be a reply to the sp feedback thread.

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#2: uhh

by pushplay on 05/24/2002 09:53

I thought the idea was the move away from the technology of wolf3d?

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#3: sorry, not part of my design

by Aardappel on 05/24/2002 11:41

I have deliberately designed to be "dumb", in an attempt to copy the Doom AI. The idea is that the gameplay strategy comes from the overwhelming numbers of monsters, not from their individual intelligence.

Right now, because their path finding is limited and relatively predictable, you can make use of bends to escape from them or take cover. If the AI had bot-like path finding, given the quantities I like to see them in, it would be very boring since they would all home in on you perfectly.

I know the trend in SP gaming is for you to combat only few smart AIs at once, but this is not the gameplay I want to create... I prefer the split second tactical decisions I have to make while being surrounded by dozens of monsters (as in good Doom maps).

As to them gathering all in the middle of the map, that is a consequence of DM map designs (atriums reachable from everywhere) or SP maps with the same problems. One thing I plan to do is make them unable to jump off high ledges, to stop them falling to the lowest spot.

lowering vision distance is a good idea, I'll try that out.

They currently already jump automatically sometimes when trying to overcome a height difference, just not very effectively for most of them since jump height depends on walking speed (monsters are moved by correct physics).

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#4: Aard:

by captmellow on 05/24/2002 19:23

I understand, & it makes sense. And I _was_ thinking of Unreal monster ai, which is of the "few smart monsters" school of thought. You do well to "stick to your guns" & not cave in to groupthink.

So, let me give my impression of the Cube sp game ideals:

1) Simple, 2d maps and simple ai, a la Doom. Given this, a few examples re: Doom maps. Episode 1 style maps = smooth flowing gameplay. Gothic2 style maps = great-looking but poor playing maps. Dumb ai needs simple map elements. IMO one of the smoothest-flowing cube maps is zippy. Czerwonka's Doom map BOThered was deliberately designed to help the relativeley dumb (no nav nodes at the time) Doombots navigate them w/out getting hung up on fancy architectural features.

2) Hectic gameplay, like Doom or dare I say Serious Sam? Any plans for triggers that teleport in tons of monsters? Doom was doing that long before Croteam. Any plans for skullfly-type attacks, or fiend/kleer-like leaping attacks? Having all the monsters do a projectile attack doesn't allow for as much variety in tactics.

3) BTW the chaingun suit guy needs his attack tweaked. It reminds me of the Deathbot (if memory serves me correctly) doing single-shot plasma attacks. He needs to _spray_ those bullets.

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#5: Re: Aard:

by pushplay on 05/25/2002 00:43, refers to #4

Triggers that teleport in monsters is something you can already do. If you take a look in sp_stalingrad there's a place where you tap the trigger, and it opens 5 windows which each with a monster and a teleport. Well I set up that trap so that the best thing to do is not panic and run around, but instead take them out one at a time with the rifle. You could easily do something more subtle preventing the player from killingthem before they get to the teleport.

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#6: captmellow

by Aardappel on 05/25/2002 12:03

1) "zippie" is a DM map. if you are referring to DMSP, this is just a fun mod to put the DM maps to some good use and have quick, intense fun. When I refer to cube SP as a design, I mean the classic SP. This is what I tweak the AI for.

2) what sucked most in SS was monsters teleporting in your view, I much prefer them being "released" out of sight. The easiest and best way to add monsters is already available: just make a trigger opening several walls. This way you can construct monster traps, or just plain releasing of monster from areas you have already been to.

3) I don't agree... maybe his shooting needs to be more frequent but certainly not spraying, that would make him way too dangerous an enemy. just place more of them in your map if you want to make them harder :)

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#7: hmmmm

by captmellow on 05/26/2002 04:32

Well, then, I guess I was presumptuous about him being a chaingun guy, & that he would be wielding it in the customary fashion. The Doom chaingunners, the SS scorp chaingunners, they all sprayed bullets. When the cube suit guy didn't, I assumed it was not intentional, but a mistake. So he is supposed to be more of a single shot guy, like the zombies in Doom? Do you plan to have a chaingunner? Perhaps some slow-moving, lumbering thing?

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#8: chaingunner...

by Aardappel on 05/26/2002 15:16

I'm not sure... he would need to have bullets that do little damage. I'll see :)

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