Sauerbraten M/MMORPG Full Conversion Mod

by Sauerbraten M/MMORPG on 06/21/2005 06:24, 54 messages, last message: 10/10/2005 22:20, 16428 views, last view: 05/05/2024 14:31

It Strikes me as odd, that we have the code released to the public, yet there is not one M/MMO Project started for this game.This is the Perfect oppertuinity and tool that we have to get a community project going to MOD this game into a total conversion.

This is the most mature version of \"cube\" weve seen yet.The Perfect 3D engine for making an M/MMO and yet noone has even said anything about it yet.I am going to launch a project to create an M/MMO based on the Sauerbraten Engine.We are currently using the latest version of the engine and are in need of coders.

Well, I have no coding experiance, but me and a friend will be creating the models and World. I would like any coders that have the ability to help us with this project,Please Contact Me Via AIM at Pbrisend or My partner Via AIM at nvrbored88.

If you would like to get involved in this project You can also reach me Via Email at Pbrisend@hotmail.com. Thank You and I hope we can get a decent M/MMO out of this.

I know its a difficult project and the engine is incomplete, but we would really appreciate feedback be it negative or posative.We would also like to know if anyone is interested in helping us model weapons and/or build the world.Keep in mind, this is NOT a professional project, it is just for fun!

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#35: ..

by Al3xand3r on 07/12/2005 11:00

So if the character is gonna do it alone without much player input then why have to do it at all? Just make that part simple so that the player does have an input in a simple and entertaining way and doesn\\\'t have to wait around for seemingly no reason and, of course, can get back to doing the really fun stuff sooner without having to sacrifice some of the experience (ie dedicate on monster bashing so end up having no time to \\\"waste\\\" for home building).

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#36: Re: A Big No to life of hardship and economy of scarcity

by Lonewolf on 07/12/2005 18:17, refers to #36

IF thats true then why when EQ 2 went public it had 2 million users the first hour?

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#37: rpg gameplay

by kurtis84 on 07/16/2005 02:04, refers to #37

From reading most of this topic, it seems to me theres a good deal of people all for each method of gameplay.

IMHO, I think an RPG should allow the player to choose his/her method of gameplay. If you want to be a peacefull trader for example, then do that...if you want to gather a gang of thugs and pillage a village, then do so.

my 2 cents ;)

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#38: mmofps

by corpusc on 09/28/2005 03:39

i will be using the Sauerbraten.org engine.
my ultimate longterm goal is a mmofps, but to start out with, i will be making and trying to sell these (for a small price):

Helhack
A realtime action based dungeon crawl that aims to capture the essence of Nethack.
But with action FPS combat and interface.
Endlessly new generated dungeons that look/play different every time you play.
The 3D realm should allow for much prettier and varied visual environments
Hopefully this will also have a co-op multiplayer mode, but may not.

Helven
A fantasy themed multiplayer FPS (ala Heretic, Hexen) game, with seamless
switching from editing maps to playing them.

I will be extending Sauerbratens
primitives to include, cones, discs, cylinders, terrain tiles, wedges, arbitrary triangles
and such.

Then Helven would morph into an MMO.
Add paging landscape, and modify the networking structure
to allow for one cohesive world where players can freely go to whatever part they want.
Also the players would be able to add onto the world and modify it, with a system
of peer review, and ServerOp approval (to officially add submissions/modifications to the
world).

reply to this message

#39: great!

by Aardappel_ on 09/28/2005 05:49

so to all those coders with experience creating MMO's that are sitting around doing nothing, go help these guys out! from their posts I can clearly tell they have a solid plan. Creating a persistent, networked world should be easy for any programmer anyway.

And indeed, sauerbraten desperately needs cone primitives. They should be easy to add and fit right in.

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#40: ..

by >_< Sauceofallevils >_< on 10/02/2005 05:31

Morgaine2, you type to much, you never keep me intrested long enough to read 10 paragraphs...

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#41: Re: ..

by -Rick- on 10/02/2005 14:26, refers to #41

I'ts a start ;)

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#42: Re: ..

by pushplay on 10/02/2005 20:20, refers to #41

Definitely an improvement.

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#43: a more diverse sauer community

by corpusc on 10/06/2005 03:54, refers to #39

_______________________________________
And indeed, sauerbraten desperately needs cone primitives. They should be easy to add and fit right in.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ah, sarcasm...a great form of community motivation. </sarcasm>

I am not affiliated with or working with the original poster in any way.
I simply posted here because its about the only thread with the main subject being an MMO.

I have been working on my own FROM SCRATCH engine for years and have a much more clear idea on how much work "simple" things are to code than when i started.
Also there are now some good free-for-commercial-use options now that didnt exist back when i started.
Before discovering sauer i decided to basically rewrite my own engine using ogre3d.org.
Ogre3D is STRICLY a rendering engine, you have to code physics, networking, sound, input, everything else yourself.
after studying sauer some more i am going back to ogre3d to make progress towards my longterm goal.
I still will probably use sauer somewhat in parallel in order to make sure i get SOMEthing done within a year or 2, even if its just the typical "simple" cube-mod type of thing.

After learning more about sauer I am seeing that i would have to rewrite so many things that it feels more rewarding to work on my own clean design (which has higher aspirations PLANNED from day one), than to graft/gut/rewrite so many changes/additions onto sauer.
sauer is purposely designed to be as simple as possible.
Which is all fine and well for you Aard.
by higher aspirations, i mean things such as paging landscapes, mmo capabilities, making it easy to publicly edit the world with random players in a cooperative way without any old jerk being able to come in and ruin your work (yes, theres a shitload of work to be done to make that possible).
I AM NOT critisizing your great accomplishments.
Some feel its better to have something simple that EXISTS and WORKS, than to have grand designs that go nowhere and produce nothing.
I can't argue with that.
I am just a tad bit irritated that you critisize my plans/goals, just because they are not similar to your ideas.
Dont you want people with different concepts and paradigms to use your engine?
Or do you want everything to be a cube/sauer mod-like thing with just different textures/sounds etc.?

You place utmost importance on simplicity of ENGINE design.
Nothing wrong with that.

I place utmost importance on simplicity of design of the END USER EXPERIENCE.
Ease of interface/editing.
Ease of playing/configuring.
And i want my engine to be as complex as necessary to fulfill that goal.
Nothing wrong with that.

Alot of map editors are not completely happy with the current implementation of the deformable cubes.
Sometimes they have to jump alot of extra hoops to edit with them, and certain types of terrain (that they obviously wanna make) is just not possible.
You tell them to make something else instead.
You dont care because other primitives dont fit your engine design concept.

Thats fine for YOU, but dont knock the idea of somebody else who is willing to
try to take the basic concept of easy in-engine editing, and try to make ANY arrangement of vertices possible (and easy), while still keeping map sizes very small.

BTW, in-engine map editing while keeping file sizes very small has been the fundamental backbone of my own engine from day one.
its something i have been thinking about and working on (to a lesser degree) for MANY years.
my life is dedicated to creating something that aims to go beyond existing engines/games in several (if not many) significant ways.

the purpose of cones is mostly to be used as the final piece in a string of cylinders that are chained.

think of a fang of a snake, or the snake itself.
its basically a line shape with a thickness, that varies from one end to another.
by using a fine enough grain (number of chained cylindrical shapes that are seamlessly connected) you can represent any type of curving line.
going towards the tail of the snake, the cylinders get narrower and narrower. i could (for strings like this) choose NOT to use a cone tip.
i could just make the last piece a cylinder with no width, which would make the last VISIBLE piece narrow to a tip. but the tip is using x number of extra vertices (x = number of sides of the cylinders) for that single point, when it only needs 1. also it is using an extra primitive at the end thats not visible, adding many more primitives to a cave scene where you have a bunch of stalagtites, stalagmites (and possibly cave snakes, each with 2 fangs) all with cone shaped tips.
its just better to throw one more primitive in the mix. *GASP*

in regards to the snakes, yes, eventually i plan to have my own dynamic model format that compresses model sizes to small sizes by treating them the same way as world architecture.

cones will make great spiked/horned decorations to all kinds of maps.

castle towers (cylinders) could all be easily capped with the typical cone shaped roof.

i guess its hard for you to imagine
things not being built out of cubes?


in all seriousness, you accomplished alot of great work. and i highly respect that.
its good for your focus that you keep your engine design goals simplistic.

but leave your mind open to the possibilities of your engine to morph into something completely different in other peoples hands.

people who have different goals and ideas for their projects.
you only need to critisize their ideas if they are pushing for them to be integrated into sauer itself.

it can turn many people away to get needlessly personal and tell them their ideas are stupid.

just think about how you come across to people. in another thread you said you didnt have much respect for the nexuiz project because they were using an existing engine and not building it from scratch themselves.

sure, you deserve extra props for having done that. but it came across like you basically just told everybody who was thinking about using sauer/cube that you wouldnt respect them much. because they are using YOUR engine instead of making their own. you WANT everyone to make their own instead?

i agree your own sauer project needs a clear leader/pope, and needs a limited focus.
but leave room in your mind for other people to take it in their own direction.
i think you should even encourage and maybe even NURTURE the offshoots/forks.
there are benefits to gained from growing the dev community. to extend it beyond the core SAUER PROJECT devs. they can be beneficial even when they arent submitting patches for sauer itself.

i CERTAINLY wouldn't bash them.

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#44: Re: a more diverse sauer community

by Aardappel_ on 10/06/2005 06:01, refers to #43

"Some feel its better to have something simple that EXISTS and WORKS, than to have grand designs that go nowhere and produce nothing."

Exactly. You have just answered your own question.

You can get all upset that I am "bashing" your ideas, but maybe instead you should take the hint: your ideas are excessively unrealistic.

Feel very free to use sauerbraten for whatever you want, I am not trying to restrict anyone. In fact, my sarcasm represents exactly that feeling: I have given up trying to educate the endless stream of MMO makers that come to this forum, instead from now on I will encourage them. Make an MMO. It is easy. You will be rich and famous in no time.

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#45: Re: a more diverse sauer community

by corpusc on 10/06/2005 06:45, refers to #43

to clear up some of the common misperceptions people will have about my LONGTERM project.....
its NOT AT ALL a mmorpg.
and it is NOT AT ALL like PlanetSide.

i intend to blend the BEST aspects of MMOGs and fast action FPS games.
mmoRPGs and FPS games are at fundamental odds with each other and mostly incompatible. nobody has done it even close to decently yet.
IMO, PlanetSide blends mostly the WORST aspects together. 8)
i dislike the core idea behind rpg combat mechanics. to "simulate" things with statistics that can be fairly easily simulated in proper 3D space. and having a "character" with simulated skills instead of using ACTUAL player skills.
IMO, typical rpg combat mechanics should have died many years ago.

Helhack will have certain RPG aspects which are compatible with FAST ACTION gaming. but there won't be the typical virtual dice rolling combat mechanics. or in ANY game project that
i create for myself
the reasons i decided on Helhack as a first project is:

1) tap into an existing Nethack fanbase that understands and is addicted to the concept of endless, everchanging environments

2) i would rather spend lots of time coding a scheme to generate (at least halfway) decent looking endless content.
rather than spending probably alot MORE time making a finite amount of (30 or so) handcrafted maps that wouldnt take long to finish playing thru

3) can be integrated in my longer term projects as fallback content when all the handcrafted stuff is explored/exhausted, and for people who prefer coop instead of competitive gameplay

where the levels would come into play in Helhack......on the top floor monsters would shoot slowly, fire slow-moving, weak projectiles, move slowly, move simplistically.
at the bottom near the amulet/whatever,
they would fire quickly, fast-moving and/or hitscan weapons, shoot often, doing alot of damage per hit,move quick, duck, dodge etc....

as far as skill aquisition....not sure i would have any....might make running speed improve....jumping height....frequency of jumping ability (at first you couldnt jump that often).....these are all things that wouldnt fit in well IMO into a competitive fragfest and if implemented would only exist to make HelHack more like NetHack.
as far as weapon aquisition, i have a spell system designed that is similar to Ultima Underworld, where you compose spells from runes that each represent some element/action/idea and in different combinations do different things. this would end up being quite a few different runes, and each time you aquire one you get an exponential amount of new spells. so this would mesh pretty well with a more rpg type of weapon aquisition system. altho they likely would not be your typical weak to strong weapons progression.
rather you would always have the potential to do an x amount of damage per second, and the runes just change how that damage is dispersed (refire rates, projectile speed, splash damage radius size (or none) ).
this would give a ton of weapon variety but make sure that the weapons are balanced for fragfests.
if i scale the monster right between easiest to hardest, i dont see a need to scale weapons the same way. just by having more variety of how to disperse the damage gives you more power thru more options.

In subsequent game releases (Helven/whatever) there will be no levelling or character skills affecting you. it will all be real-life skills based for fast duke3d/quake2 style fragging.

i envision my longterm end goal mmofps as being somewhat like Second Life, but with fast action fragging as a fundamental gameplay option from the beginning, where i dont add any general purpose features that would sacrifice fast and smooth action gameplay. fast fragging action trumps all other concerns.
second life has no real fundamental gameplay. everything is created by users pretty much thru their general purpose scripting abilities (which has lots of limitations).

similar to SL, i may not have any NPCs on the surface of the world. they would probably only be in dungeons. the surface would be for pvp fps wars and an immersive atmosphere. dungeons would be where the various runes would be scattered over the world, with some guaranteed (AI) opposition to you getting them easily. so while there wouldnt be any levelling or grinding, there would be a SMALL initial amount of "questing" to help immerse people in the world and give them a purpose to their initial introduction to the game. getting a sense of the world layout and see the various environments. and hopefully force them into running into other players. 8) i am a STRONG believer in the heart of the game being based on "emergent" gameplay. where the players decide their own goals, purposes, quests, team/clanmates. not to have any contrived stories or purposes shoehorned into their gaming time.
that time typically spent on "content" creation should be spent on tools to help players create content for themselves and others.
that way CREATing content BECOMES content itself. and entertaining the other players also becomes content.
tools that help them be able to have somewhat of a "dungeon master" experience.
tools to help them become news reporters, recording and posting interesting happenings or even creating theatrical pieces in the game.
etc, etc....yes, this starts getting into the far frontiers of gaming, things that will take awhile to really actually get to the point of doing.
just pointing out that traditional game designs are all about hardwiring and handcrafting virtually all content for THOUSANDS of players, but only having one company doing it. when there are tons of users out there that would LOVE to be creating the content themselves. the game companies are just wasting their energies, throwing it away into insatiable blackholes of manhour sucking "company created content" paradigms.

i am just showing here my complete and semi-seamless timeline plan from something very realistic (HelHack, small-scale Helven), into something far off and pretty lofty.
cuz i know how it looks when anybody says they are doing ANYthing MMO.
people gloss it over, no matter what ideas are actually expressed, and my plans as stated, and in reality, are FAR FROM YOUR TYPICAL plan.
it is alot more important for me to keep getting work done than put much energy into convincing random net users that i am onto something.

but its worth laying it out a little more in detail in case any other imaginative and visionary coders, can get interested in the idea. perhaps some of the folks already working on their own projects even.
i don't at all believe the typical idea that you have to have a large or even medium-sized company to pull off an MMO. just a different paradigm of content creation/management.

i don't believe you need more than a few artists (modellers, texturists).
and i happen to be the rare coding artist. and i am pretty damn decent. 8) so i will be doing work on art myself, especially with mapping.
afterall, there has got to be an initial starting town/land complete with dungeons. ServerOps can completely remove that and replace with their own if they want.

i DO know that just one coder isnt gonna cut it for an MMO in the long run. 8)
but most people dont have enough imagination to get it sparked thru words. they need some pictures in order to feel that something is real.
i guess i should save this and reword it for my website, for when i have some screenshots/movies that i care to post. i have half a mind to go back to my own original engine and put a little more work into cleaning it up so i can put it up for dl and make some movies showing how editing works in my world. now that i am talking in the ogre3d.org and sauer communities its actually starting to be important to prove things to people, since there are so many pure ideas floating around that nobody gives any serious attention to things that don't have an accompanying .EXE

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#46: ..

by pushplay on 10/06/2005 07:39

"Alot of map editors are not completely happy with the current implementation of the deformable cubes. Sometimes they have to jump alot of extra hoops to edit with them, and certain types of terrain (that they obviously wanna make) is just not possible."

Well that's no different than it was for Cube, but maybe now it's harder to wrap your head around it. I wouldn't mind actually talking to these mappers and seeing how much of this is: a conceptual problem which can be dealt with in documentation and education; a usability problem which can be dealt with in code; and a problem of people with incompatible visions of what they should be able to do.

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#47: Re: a more diverse sauer community

by corpusc on 10/06/2005 08:23, refers to #44

_________________________________
-Aard

Exactly. You have just answered your own question.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

no, that was just the obvious thing that pretty much any human thinks about another persons ideas. i was just stating the most simplistic human reaction. hoping it wasnt just as simple as that.
its always assumed if a person had something to show they would be showing it.
my actual questions (below) are unanswered.

_________________________________
-corpusc

Dont you want people with different concepts and paradigms to use your engine?
Or do you want everything to be a cube/sauer mod-like thing with just different textures/sounds etc.?

..

but it came across like you basically just told everybody who was thinking about using sauer/cube that you wouldnt respect them much. because they are using YOUR engine instead of making their own. you WANT everyone to make their own instead?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


_________________________________
You can get all upset that I am "bashing" your ideas, but maybe instead you should take the hint: your ideas are excessively unrealistic.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

if you said just "IDEA" i would think you were just making the statement that you think anyone making an mmofps is being unrealistic. or do you you j ust think that using YOUR engine to do it isn't a smart choice?

but since you said ideas, as in multiple ideas, i am just curious what would be the OTHER unrealistic thing or things in my original message (since that was the only thing you had responded to at the time). if you wanna call the subsequent detailed messages unrealistic.......it SHOULD be obvious that it is a spectrum going from a simple game (which i mentioned may not even have multiplayer) into an idealistic dream game.

lets see, i mentioned HelHack, the 1st incarnation of Helven (basically just a standard FPS mod), adding various other primitives......so far i dont think you could be possibly talking about any of those.......

Then i mention MMO related stuff:
paging landscape,
modifying the networking,
allowing players to be in different
parts of the world,
users adding onto the world,
having a submission process of submitting their maps,
a peer review system for other players
to see and leave comments about new content before it because officially part of the gameworld (as a shitfilter for busy ServerOps)
........

which of those things are "excessively unrealistic"?

i never said or in any way implied that making an MMO was easy.

let me point out that its clear that these MMO concepts are FUTURE things to be done down the road after getting OTHER, more simple projects being done.
i couldnt have been anymore obvious about that.

i am just failing to see how you are having a hardtime confusing me with every other person thats ever talked about MMO plans.

all these questions are ONLY rhetorical questions.
designed to give you feedback about your casual, offhand, & careless replies.
i don't expect you to change protocol & start responding to me in a coherent manner, or enlighten me in any way.
i expect another glib reply showing how obviously you obliviously skim over things and make snap judgements.
just keep lumping ideas/plans into neat little categories for dismissal.

i am just holding up a mirror to you so maybe you can reflect on your words for more than a minute.

your trying to hold up a mirror to me,
to make me feel like i am being unrealistic.....
but the difference is that i obviously have spent a decent amount of time typing up a message.
not to mention the time spent building these ideas (and almost 8000 lines of code) over some years. if you think about it, that would mean ive already talked to a decent amount of people about those plans and already heard plenty of naysaying.

if i was a normal person i would let my dislike for your style keep me away from supporting or contributing to this "snotty", "negative" community in any way.

not like you care....no need to say it.

i am just trying to give you helpful feedback with these personal statements.
not looking for your approval, just hoping you develop a sense of trying to create a more positive community for all sauer users benefit (and your own).
even if you dont much faith in new posters, there are actually some talented and productive people that will pass thru here in disgust because
of the casually negative comments from the engine author. people expect more from you than they do from the average forum flamer.

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#48: editing

by corpusc on 10/06/2005 08:55, refers to #46

______________________________________
Well that's no different than it was for Cube, but maybe now it's harder to wrap your head around it. I wouldn't mind actually talking to these mappers and seeing how much of this is: a conceptual problem which can be dealt with in documentation and education; a usability problem which can be dealt with in code; and a problem of people with incompatible visions of what they should be able to do.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

thats all fine and good for sauer, since they have to make everything from deformable cubes (scubes? is there a shorter term commonly used for this?), and since thats seems to be one of the whole points of the engine.
pushing the idea of using only one primitive to the max.

in my game people should be able to build pretty much any shape.
arbitrary triangles should be discouraged as most things can be shaped with more advanced prims and
sheets of tiles that can be oriented to the 6 directions (not just GROUND terrain).
perhaps i will make arbitrary tris be deliberately harder to create with (than they inherently are), or budget them so that only x number can be used for each land region.
arb tris would probably be the very last primitve added.
my whole point of building an editor was to avoid having to handtweak every vertex (as much as possible). 8)

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#49: You're missing the point.

by Pxtl on 10/06/2005 16:35

The whole point of Cube/Sauer is that it is deliberately limited in order to maintain simplicity. Yes, you cannot construct everything you can imagine, but the trade-off is that the engine and interface is simple to work with.

Alternately, you could map entirely using 3D Studio Max. That would be incredibly powerful and incredibly painful.

There are tons of ways to change things that would fit in with Sauer's design paradigm while increasing power.

For example, map models could be distorted to automatically fill their distorted cube (I haven't played with mapmodels in Sauer enough - can this be done already?) Thus, your cone primitive could be an MD2 embedded into a sauer cube - you could distort the MD2 by distorting the containing cube.

Alternately (and Aard would never do this, but it would be cool) you could convert all of Sauer's flat surfaces into NURBS. Instead of the current "each cube has 8 corners" it would be "each cube has 8 corners and each corner of the cube has 3 anchors". Moving around the 3 anchors would allow you to distort the surfaces, rounding edges and creating smoother shapes. I'm not an expert on NURBS, so I could be completely wrong, but that should allow for pipes and spheres and slopes and suchlike.

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#50: Re: editing

by pushplay on 10/07/2005 02:06, refers to #48

None of that really addresses my post though.

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#51: ..

by >_< Sauceofallevils >_< on 10/07/2005 02:44

Man corpusc, all your posts are so huge, i just can help but skim over 70% of posts that have more then 6 paragraphs.

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#52: Re: editing

by spentron on 10/07/2005 03:45, refers to #48

It seems that Sauer does drop a couple of the design goals of Cube, and therefore structures other than a cube-based shape could fit. My impressions are:

Number 1 goal of Cube is in-engine 3D editing, which is aided by having a grid display and grid-based structure to assist the mapper in alignment, rather than adding 2D views.

Number 2 goal in Cube was a simple means of determining occlusion using said grid-based structure rather than relying on compilation. This has been dropped so far in Sauer by having no occlusion. If it is developed, it may rely on cubic grid-based structure or something else, possibly optional compilation.

Number 3 goal or aspect of Cube was lighting without compilation. This was done by using a simple lighting model based on the grid structure and made acceptable by the various limitations. It has been dropped in Sauer, probably never to return.

What I have to consider possibly a better idea would be to adapt more shape primitives to Cube, possibly comprising Sauerbraten's. Only Cube's original structure would be used for occlusion. I had a similar idea ragarding mapmodels in Cube, using Cube's regular geometry almost exclusively where occlusion is required (in space games, possibly as 100% skybox) and models for everything else. The mapmodel implementation would need improving ... and it's still an awkward way to create. It would be better to allow complex and cubic shape/occluder editing to be combined in a single engine.

Yet another possibility is to add more structures to Sauer, first which would be the nondeformable occlusion cube, and then the more complex shapes. This has a certain symmetry.

All thes possibilties probably would cause an explosion of editing controls, but would be more manageable with Sauer's key+mousewheel approach than Cube's originally keyboard-based approach.

Now back to current reality. Cube and Sauer have certain limitations which you can create many cool things with. Games using seperate editors provide much more power in creation and are not necessarily more difficult to work with. The appeal of Cube and Sauer is hard to define, I keep referring to it as the Etch-a-Sketch or Lego quality. It could probably be lost easily by attempting to make an engine to suit everyone.

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#54: New Singler Player CUBE map up!

by JB on 10/10/2005 21:44

hey cubers -

a quick heads-up to let you know about my DATA STORAGE FACILITY single player map.

it's HUGE! five original sound tracks, new sound fx and vocal samples.

at least 30min of play/exploration.

download now at www.SixDogStudios.com

:)
JUNEBUG

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#55: Re: New Singler Player CUBE map up!

by SunDog on 10/10/2005 22:20, refers to #54

Hmmm, doesn't work for me. I get the username/password dialog, along with instructions to enter the username and password for "www.electronisounds.com". (Yes, that's "electroni", without the second "c".) Clicking "cancel" gives me the "Access is denied due to invalid credentials" error message. Anybody else having this problem?

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