Sauerbraten Game Discussion

by rtf on 08/19/2004 05:56, 11 messages, last message: 08/24/2004 11:27, 1327 views, last view: 04/03/2024 02:21

This thread is meant to discuss the gameplay and content of Sauerbraten, not it's engine or related technology, for which the "Sauerbraten engine development" thread exists. Previous threads have touched on the gameplay but I think it's time to move it into the open.

I think there are probably two things that we can all agree on to start off this discussion:

1. Sauer will have some kind of RPG aspect to it, as our leader Aardappel suggests :)

2. The core gameplay should be kept relatively simple, to mirror the engine design and Cube's gameplay before it.

To add to these two points I would suggest a third:

Sauer should not be planned as an organized, continous storyline or setting, but as a series of them.

The reason for this third idea is because of the open-source development process. It is difficult to convince anyone to do work for someone else's idea without monetary reward. Programmers add the features they want to see; artists draw and model the content they like to build. Previous successful open-source games tend to be disorganized mish-mashes: Nethack and Crossfire come to mind. MUD games, as well, often end up mixing modern and mythical settings. Vega Strike, a more modern example, has a relatively "generic" space theme to work with and still is in need of much more content to really feel complete.

And there's Cube itself, of course. I don't think it really has much of a setting but it does pretty well ;)

I think an interesting potential model for where Sauer could go is ZZT:
http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?name=ZZT

ZZT is a 2d game using ASCII for graphics. The basic gameplay is very simplistic:
-The player is the grey smiling face, starting with 100 health, and no points, ammo or gems.
-There are some pre-coded items, obstacles and enemies for the mapmaker to place. Basic puzzles can be made with some of the obstacles(keys/doors, boxes, pushers, two-way sliders, teleports).
-The player can move around the map, shoot(with ammo), touch other map items, and get hurt by them. The game instantly ends at 0 health.
-Additional gameplay may be coded with the included scripting language, but can only expand on or ignore parts of the core gameplay, not subtract from it.
-A full IDE is included.

ZZT's success is evident by the fansites that exist today, nearly 15 years after release. This success can be explained by how the process of game-making is simplified down to the very basics; the gameplay for simple games is built-in, and as an author gets more ambitious, more can be done by coding it.

I bring up ZZT because it in so many ways resembles what you might get by having an "extended" version of Cube: The basic gameplay in both cases involves movement and shooting, the only thing missing in our case is the powerful toolset. We probably can't have a comparable toolset, Sauer being in 3d etc., but it can be a better one, and we can tweak the gameplay around to do more than today; exploration and puzzle-solving will give us plenty of the proper RPG feel, and if that's not enough you can start introducing the weaponry and statistical upgrades(more health, faster running and higher jumping...)

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#1: hmm...

by Pxtl on 08/19/2004 13:55

Personally, I have no interest in "Sauerbraten RPG". I generally dislike RPGs with very few exceptions. As such, the work I'm designing for Sauerbraten (if I ever get the time, which is looking less and less likely thanks to my new job) is focussed on FPS-action gameplay (trying to design a dead-simple-fast system for quick one-off FPS game designs without having to resort to scripting or modding).

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#2: well

by _Aardappel on 08/19/2004 19:54

..

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#3: ahem

by _Aardappel on 08/19/2004 19:55

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but until the engine has matured, there is little point discussing this, since it is so far off.

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#4: Re: ahem

by RealNitro on 08/19/2004 21:34, refers to #3

"I appreciate your enthusiasm, but until the engine has matured, there is little point discussing this, since it is so far off."
How far off, roughly? (I'm new here.)



BTW, Aardappel, ben je een Belg?

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#5: FPS not RPG

by hiandbye on 08/19/2004 23:15

although i\'d like to see new elements being introduced for this new engine, i personally agree with Pxtl that a straightforward FPS style game would be more appropriate in the beginning for sauer. later on the FPS can be toned down in terms of shooting nd new RPG elements can be added...

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#6: Re: ahem

by _Aardappel on 08/20/2004 01:28, refers to #4

noone knows how far off exactly, the reason I open sourced it in the first place is that I don't have time to carry the project, I can do "supervision" at best. It was an experiment to see if such a community project would work, but sofar, except for Gilts efforts, this hasn't worked out (he doesn't have as much time for it as we would like).

Ik ben een nederlander :)

FPS vs RPG: this is a non-issue, once the engine starts shaping up, plugging Cube's FPS gameplay back in as a base to work from is a matter of 1 weeks work or so. So there will be a sauerbraten FPS, which will just look like next gen Cube. The RPG has much more extensive requirements in terms of art/levels/dialogue etc, and is going to be more of a project.

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#7: new engine + flatland

by powerpop on 08/20/2004 03:53

i dont know why i never came across Cube before - very nice!

so i am interested in the old and new engines - mostly because i have been working on block based 3D maps for quite a while (1996) and have a patent for using block object and symbols that expand to full 3D scenes (ahem!) - not that it means that much unless someone with big money uses a block approach (like Epic or Id ;)

you can see my last gen engine at http://www.flatland.com - it uses an XML based format with symbols to make the game levels

i am currently working on a new 3DML based engine based on an opensource 3D engine

i will dig into the work you have done here more - if you find flatland interesting send me email and we can talk - there is probably room for collaboration since what i will be doing is opensource as well

again, a great direction to take - i think more of this has to be explored to lower the barrier to entry for people to make their own game experiences and share them

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#8: Hooray For Software Patents

by pushplay on 08/20/2004 04:18

This: "have a patent for using block object and symbols that expand to full 3D scenes (ahem!) - not that it means that much unless someone with big money uses a block approach (like Epic or Id ;)"

Reads like: "hey I have a patent I'm sitting on and I'd like to sue someone over but you don't have any money"

Not accusing you of anything, I'm just saying.

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#9: true

by pow on 08/20/2004 04:42

** first, how can use the powerpop name again here?? **

that\'s exactly what i am saying - its a pretty solid patent and if Id, Epic or EA ever came out with a block based game or mmporg you bet i would go after them - it took a lot of sweat and $ to get that patent - so if someone makes actual $ off the idea i\'ll be standing there with my hand out

but more importantly i am all for opensource and the ideal of everyman\'s 3D - its still too damn hard for anyone to make a decent game level - cube is the first thing i have seen in a while that is doing some good work in that regard - and i am all for opensource projects that experiment with editing techniques like this

the project i am working on is an opensource mmporg similar to cube but with higher order building blocks and P2P networking

so Sauer caught my eye - currently i am working with Irrlicht but i keep dabbling with Ogre - and i am continuing down the path of keeping the XML format for the scene format

one thing we did in flatland is to remove matching faces between cubes - in the player (Rover) there is also a user option for how many blocks are visible (radius) - this seems to keep the frame rate in check

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#10: Re: new engine + flatland

by _Aardappel on 08/20/2004 10:24, refers to #7

the idea is very cool... though making entire levels in ascii art would get a bit tedious.

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#11: ..

by staffy99 on 08/24/2004 11:27

would a mech/armored tanks and apcs/halo type little men rpg ever work?

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