A CS clone with Cube/Sauer

by rtf on 06/10/2004 08:43, 25 messages, last message: 06/15/2004 19:56, 7239 views, last view: 05/04/2024 01:28

Ya, sounds stupid I know. I'm not taking it too seriously, but I thought about it and there's a reasonably strong case for why I(or someone else) would want to work on such a project.

Mod projects that clone CS are a dime a dozen, but none of them EVER want to share their code. This is a silly notion - if you're making a clone it should be an open-source clone because with clones, you can get project members more easily - they already know what the game's like after all. (wheras if you're making something wholly original, nobody will help unless you pay them - they'll have no passion for it) Cube is successful in that sense because it's very similar to existing DM games, and it probably would have had a harder time developing to where it is if it weren't able to build from that.

Another advantage is that because it's free, it'll end up with a bigger community. Maybe not a bigger community than CS was at peak, but probably a larger one than what we see from Cube today. That brings trouble of course, but it will also translate into benefits like more servers, (possibly)faster engine development, and a greater amount of content, all of which can bleed back over to the main project and help it too.

There are gameplay reasons too. CS is an old game now, and it's stablized into something that I'm not sure anyone is completely happy with. The pace is painfully slow, little strategy is needed on most maps(which are now mostly uninteresting variations on loops) and the combat is an awkward, unsatisfying compromise between realism and balance, constantly tweaked while the silly money system that perhaps causes the most trouble sticks around. It could really all do with a major revision, something that really advances the design.

Lastly, using Cube/Sauer would open up new technical possibilities. With real-time modifiable terrain, explosives could add to gameplay by allowing some/most walls to get blown up - so if all the exits are camped, you can make a new one.

Of course, I wouldn't want any clone project to intrude on the main game - that's Aardappel's decision after all. It just seems like a project that would really make sense.

   Board Index   

#6: Re: Shogo

by D.plomat on 06/11/2004 15:04, refers to #3

Aah, i see... more realistic than CS for certain things, less for other... maybe a bit more like America's Army but with faster gameplay and more powerful weapons? (only played the training missions, so i don't know how a multiplayer AA game feels)

In fact it's a modified Counter-strike that you want? IMHO it'd be easier to mod CS itself, as it's far closer (!) of modified-CS than Sauer/Cube

Or, don't know if this is possible, to mod AA... then you already have the fire-mode select, the positional things, you just have to modify weapons power, player movement speed and add the equipment system.

reply to this message

#7: Hmm.

by Pxtl on 06/11/2004 15:51

Is AA moddable? The unreal engine is wonderfully moddable, and I'm pretty sure its based on that, but they might've removed the modding features.

Anyhow, my point was that, at least the plans I have for stuff to implement in Sauer, that the kind of physics needed for a CS or other similar game would be already there and specific factors would be enabled or governed by config files.

reply to this message

#8: Mostly about the engine, not the game

by rtf_x on 06/11/2004 20:09

(posting from another cpu now)

Modding another engine might be easier at the moment, but if Sauer develops as planned, I think it will probably become a superior modding platform to most current engines. It is of primary importance to make the tools accessable in order to build a strong mod community, and Sauer is going to do that: the map editor is fantastic already, scripting support should make building the gameplay easy and available to everyone - no need to get \\\"dirty\\\" and compile a new executable for each game, and by using established formats for modelling and texturing, it will not be an uphill battle to convince artists to create for Sauer.

Cube1 has done well for itself, and I think having the gameplay hard-coded into the program is the only thing that has held back the mod potential. A lot of artists want to make mods but don\\\'t have compilers or know C++, so they are limited. Certainly if you look at historical example there is a precedent for more mods when less is required of the developer: Quake1(QuakeC) seemed to have a greater number of mods than either Q2 or Q3, which used .dll files. Unreal Tournament and sequels have had even more mods, and I think they have a whole IDE setup for editing and scripting.

It would be nice to mod AA or CS....but whether or not that is possible, a lot of my interest comes with building it on a new engine that I like, and making it completely free/open. Changing the design is just a additional benefit of doing that.

reply to this message

#9: Re: Mostly about the engine, not the game

by db on 06/11/2004 22:10, refers to #8

Along these lines: what is the status of the sauer engine? I have not kept abreast of developments with it.

reply to this message

#10: Still busted.

by Pxtl on 06/11/2004 22:21

Um, it doesn't work yet. I think the character is now colliding as a box,instead of a line.

Translation: don't hold your breath.

reply to this message

#11: Re: Mostly about the engine, not the game

by D.plomat on 06/13/2004 01:36, refers to #8

> a lot of my interest comes with building it on a new engine that I like, and making it completely free/open.

Well, then you've the right motivation for modding on Cube/Sauer :)

reply to this message

#12: ..

by staffy07 on 06/13/2004 11:35

a mod for cube wouldn't take all that long to make.

there are plenty of free textures, skyboxes and music on the internet.
models, maps and code would be the hardest to get though and the quake 3 model format would most likely be needed.

reply to this message

#13: ..

by Lacrima on 06/13/2004 18:50

first i like the idea to build a new mod wich is "morerealistic" cause i like games with slower gamepseed, more important weapon selection, more startegie option and more teamwork where everyone plays an important role.

why dont u build the fps around the cube engine and a more strategic game around SAUER engine. Yes, this is not thaugth as far into the future than u do.

(thx for attention and as u can hardly recognize i m german but i hope u got it :) )

//Lacrima

reply to this message

#14: ..

by makkE on 06/13/2004 22:08

hmm although i like the fast gaming more i´d say one should do such a mod with sauer rather than cube, coz sauer will allow to map real-life-spots better than cube....

reply to this message

#15: Lacrima...

by Pxtl on 06/14/2004 14:19

Umm, more important weapon selection? CS games have far less weapon variety - 5 different assault rifles is not variety.

reply to this message

#16: ..

by sinsky on 06/15/2004 13:02

I don't think there are realistic games right now. However, there's a big difference between a game where you play against monsters and one where you play with humans. For example, Kingpin differs from Quake 2, although both games have a lot in common. I'm not going to say anything like Kingpin is better than Quake, Quake is better than Kingpin, etc., and maybe I should apologize for giving so old examples, but that's what I've played.. Anyway, my point is - in a "human" game you can have only a few models of people, nothing more (well maybe dogs, cats, chairs, tables, bottles, that kind of stuff). And a lot of different textures that can "personalize" the game to anyone who wishes to make it his own. The advantage of this is you get to show people relationships that expand beyond just shooting and buying weapons, you can try to make a chatroom for example (not very original, but it was just an example).

reply to this message

#17: Re: .. realism thingy

by idiedlastweek:( on 06/15/2004 13:19, refers to #16

i would be thinking that there are realistic games right now. But whether you would classify a game as realistic or not depends on what you call realistic. someone back in 1993 would of called doom "the most realistic game ever" There are games where one shot kills, they are realistic. Today i watched a half life 2 trailer, now that is realistic. the power lines sway when aircraft fly closely over them. The buildings blow up. people die gruesome deaths. ...... blah...blah....

Warning: The above comments are a load of c#@p. :)

reply to this message

#18: Re: .. realism thingy

by spentron-postcrash2 on 06/15/2004 14:58, refers to #17

While the tech is leading towards more realistic, I should hope we will also be seeing more unrealistic (no pun intended this time) games than ever before as well. Just because some things have been more impossible than others does not mean those things are the true futuristic direction.

I've considered a different sort of map could force players to "change gears". We look at some normal FFA maps and say "too big", they're not big enough or designed in such a way to force a change in play style, or at least to make that obvious. Take that "too big" map, put ONE powerup in it, and make it 1/25 of the whole map. Dead ends are considered bad in FFA, well some of these are the size of a whole map. And that's what a player would have to risk entering and explore to acquire rifle rounds -- chaingun bullets or rockets are surrounded by at least 10 sniping points. I don't know if this would be any fun or who would build it to find out, though. The significant thing is the normal focus of mods is completely unnecessary, the code and models and everything could remain unchanged, this could even be played on normal servers. And any potential code mods would first increase the powerup respawn and match length times, all else relatively moot.

reply to this message

#19: ..

by e:n:i:g:m:a on 06/15/2004 16:02

> I don't know if this would be any fun or who would build it to find out, though.

Well, my new FFA map has a quad in a simplar position. You teleport to a relatively safe spot in a really small room (4x4). In front of you is the quad, but there are windows below you on each side where anyone could shoot you relatively easily. The path to the quad 2 cubes wide, but you are prevented from falling off by the lower ceiling around you. However, the ceiling isn't so low that others can't see you either. Furthermore, the exit after you get the quad is right near the beginning path...

If you need some help visualizing this I could e-mail you a pic...

reply to this message

#20: Re: ..

by e:n:i:g:m:a on 06/15/2004 16:02, refers to #19

erm, that's similar, not simplar

reply to this message

#21: Re: ..

by spentron-postcrash2 on 06/15/2004 18:05, refers to #20

Sounds like the second of the only 2 DM maps I made, didn't quite work but that was a small area, not for example a huge courtyard, long seconds in the open, surrounded by buildings with tiny windows.

reply to this message

#22: Re: ..

by spentron-postcrash2 on 06/15/2004 18:59, refers to #21

well actually that whole map had bigger problems but anyway .. I don't really understand normal DM, main purpose seems to be obsufication half the time.

reply to this message

#23: Re: ..

by Pxtl on 06/15/2004 19:35, refers to #22

Um, you mean obfuscation? How so? The fact that so many maps involve spending a ton of time running around completely lost, instead of fighting?

Imho, best DM maps in DM games I've played (not counting Cube, so as not to hurt any feelings) were the Unreal Tournament '99 maps - particularly the unpopular "theme" maps like Morpheus. Quake II's Q2DM1 and Q2DM2 were good, but too large for the small Q2 playercounts I usually saw.

reply to this message

#24: ..

by e:n:i:g:m:a on 06/15/2004 19:52

What is obfuscation?? I've heard that a few times...

reply to this message

#25: Re: .. realism thingy

by sinsky on 06/15/2004 19:56, refers to #17

The warning goes about my post too :) I consider realistic the things that come out of raytracers and go to movies. For example the water in Titanic is realistic (I've heard it's mostly CG and what I just wrote would sound really stupid if this isn't true..)

reply to this message

   Board Index