Sauerbraten Maps

by shahar2k on 05/09/2004 04:31, 57 messages, last message: 01/03/2005 18:58, 17729 views, last view: 05/18/2024 23:57

well I think the current release is good enough to start really working on maps with...
I made this weird experimental map here wich has a few cool Ideas

http://home.earthlink.net/~shahar/ruins.ogz

it also contains a few errors, and shows off the scale that sauerbraten can work in (from smallest to largest)
really neat stuff this engine

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#27: ..

by _Fanatic on 05/16/2004 16:07

I'm not saying Saurbraten sucks, you're misunderstanding me.

I can target faces, and I push and pull cubes and deform them most of the time.

I'm saying after an hour of messing with the new editing style, I haven't been able to make anything that looks like a structure, or anything I made on purpose. Everything looks like I've never edited anything before in any game. And I've edited game maps since DOOM in many game engine of all kinds of genres. I can usually load up a game and start editing and have something that looks cool in a few hours.

Cube was this way for me, I had a cool looking descent sized map in a matter of hours. It was super easy to use.

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#28: ..

by hungerburg on 05/16/2004 16:13

..

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#29: ..

by nieb on 05/16/2004 16:48

i noticed something...
after you save and load a map up all your hills start looking like this...

http://www.geocities.com/nieb8504/Pic6.html

http://www.geocities.com/nieb8504/Pic5.html

...in the new version (2004-05-08)

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#30: ..

by nieb on 05/16/2004 16:50

if you cant see what in the pics, the hills start having like scales(fish scales) i think it divided them up into smaller cubes and didnt do a very good job at it

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#31: Re: ..

by spentron-postcrash2 on 05/16/2004 18:03, refers to #22

"scroll mouse for editing. is it easier with one " ... Sauer is being developed around it, in Cube it's more easier than faster; to run way up the texture sequence the keys are faster due to keyboard auto-repeat. Less hand movement with wheel since you need to use the mouse anyway to look. I added mousewheel entities which makes for a non-touch-typing left hand keys, right hand mouse system, which takes it a stage further.

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#32: Re: ..

by jcdpc. on 05/16/2004 18:41, refers to #27

i just didnt understand the controls. once you get them though, its really easy. maybe even easier than cube.

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#33: Re: ..

by Minion on 05/16/2004 19:36, refers to #27

You're the one who is misunderstanding. You're giving people the misconception that Sauerbraten is extremely complicated when the fact is that it isn't.

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#34: .

by Gilt on 05/16/2004 22:15

fill commands: F + scroll wheel

problems mapping: somebody should probably write a tutorial, which clearly details the fundamental ideas mappers need to know first, like that cubes are statically positioned and all editing is based around shrinking their edges, and splitting them into 8 smaller cubes.

i'll try to make it easier in game by playing around with the editing display, and adding arbitrary copy selections etc.

For those that don't have a scroll wheel, or prefer the keyboard, find your autoexec.cfg and these lines:

bind MOUSE4 [ universaldelta 1 ]
bind MOUSE5 [ universaldelta -1 ]

and change MOUSE4/5 to the keys that you would prefer using.

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#35: Re: ..

by _Fanatic on 05/17/2004 02:36, refers to #33

Wrong again, I'm stating that I'm having problems with editing, and I'm asking if anyone else is having the same difficulty.

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#36: Re: ..

by Gilt on 05/17/2004 03:56, refers to #35

ok, ok. It's natural to feel confused by mapping in this engine. As with any game, mappers have really got to understand how the engine works. mapping in quake is different from mapping in unreal, or doom, or cube. sauerbraten though is radically more different. So you've really got to put in a bit of learning about the engine before hand to start doing stuff- which can admittedly be hard without some good documentation.

And easy editing has two different parts: how easy it is to learn, and how easy it is to use for advanced users. since sauer is so different, the former is really hard. but hopefully when it's finished, the later should be better then other games.

anyway, today I've done some research with the editing, trying to make a real map, and creating structures like a hollow sphere. After that, and all the feedback, I've got a good idea on how to improve editing.

some pics of the sphere for fun:
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/hapoooo-sphere.JPG
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/hapoooo-sphere2.JPG

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#37: Re: ..

by e:n:i:g:m:a on 05/17/2004 04:24, refers to #36

Wow, how long did it take you to make the sphere?

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#38: Re: ..

by Minion on 05/17/2004 07:22, refers to #35

Yes, right, I'm sure people got the impression that *you* were having problems when you say things like "editing in cube is 100x easier" and let's not forget "editing in the beta of Sauerbraten seems impossible"

Sure, you asked for help, and in the same posts you managed to turn around and make the justification that your difficulties are all due to extreme complexities in Sauerbraten.

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#39: ..

by shahar2k on 05/17/2004 13:29

wow glit that's awesome, I tried to create a simpler sphere which took a while, so I'm really impressed that you managed to get one with THAT many cubes... that must have taken a long time, by the way did you understand my problem with the subdevision?(how certain subdevisions will always cause error)

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#40: Re: ..

by _Fanatic on 05/17/2004 14:13, refers to #38

Well, thanks for your help then. :)

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#41: Re: ..

by jcdpc. on 05/17/2004 21:16, refers to #40

calm down everyone...
Sauer is very easy once you figure out how to use it... Someone oughtta write a tututorial or at least a better readme...

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#42: s

by Gilt on 05/17/2004 22:20

It was pretty quick to do. Just create the first quadrant and c'n'p, flip and rotate the rest.

One quadrant is only about 30 solid cubes, but there are still empty cubes, along with parent cubes. so 1 quad ~= 150 cubes. The 700 in the one pic comes from the 4 quadrants in that one cube.

shahar2k: yup geomip will never be perfect. There's nothing that can be done though - or at least, it's not worth whatever it would take to fix it.

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#43: Re: ..

by Aardappel on 05/18/2004 05:34, refers to #27

Mmm... it is true that because of its 3d ness and scale it is hard to just start building out of nothing, you need more of a plan.

But if you can't build anything you are certainly missing some editing commands... for example it may not be immediately obvious that the default editing mode moves 1/8th of a cube within the current cube... which usually means inwards. Only if you use the entire cube push/pull mode can you easily pull entire cubes outwards. This would be the starting way to create structure in space.

Cube is very similar to doom for editing... Sauerbraten really takes it beyond its doom similarity, it requires different thinking. I do think in the end it is both quicker, more powerful, and more fun.

(also, some problems people are mentioning seem to be due to the "subdivide where you look" bug, Gilt let me know when you have maybe implemented some other features and it is a good time for a build.)

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#44: Re: ..

by Aardappel on 05/18/2004 05:34, refers to #27

Mmm... it is true that because of its 3d ness and scale it is hard to just start building out of nothing, you need more of a plan.

But if you can't build anything you are certainly missing some editing commands... for example it may not be immediately obvious that the default editing mode moves 1/8th of a cube within the current cube... which usually means inwards. Only if you use the entire cube push/pull mode can you easily pull entire cubes outwards. This would be the starting way to create structure in space.

Cube is very similar to doom for editing... Sauerbraten really takes it beyond its doom similarity, it requires different thinking. I do think in the end it is both quicker, more powerful, and more fun.

(also, some problems people are mentioning seem to be due to the "subdivide where you look" bug, Gilt let me know when you have maybe implemented some other features and it is a good time for a build.)

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#45: ..

by nieb on 05/24/2004 21:38

an update to nmp1

with out the bugs in it and i worked on it a little

http://www.geocities.com/nieb8504/Sauer.html

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#46: impressed and ready to map

by rtf on 05/25/2004 09:10

I'm a sort of off-and-on mapper. I've worked with Wolf3d, Doom, Q1/2/HL, Serious Sam... toyed with Cube a few times, but never very much even though I liked it(I'm bored with straight-up FPS like what Cube does so I had no desire to map for it really). Wolf3d is still the absolute simplest to work with, being of course just 2d tiles, with one "property" (item, wall) each, and Cube the 2nd....but for full 3d for a long time I had decided that Serious Engine had the best tools, even though it was still slow and tricky to work with(and to learn - partially the fault of the entity structure, but also cause it has tons of complexity, with modeller-type layers and such).

But now I have a new fav :D Even though Sauer is still pretty early in the going I'm relishing the possibilities. It's way easy to pick up, and I was doing things(ex. staircases of small cubes) that would have been painful to comprehend with any other editor. It's not so great on the fine details cause of the lower limit on size, but that can be taken care of with models I guess.

The funny thing is that I had realized that mapping with tiles(or cubes) was the simplest method ever since I went from Wolf to Doom; but nobody paid attention if I pointed out that it would be *really nice* if an editor let you lay things out in tiles, at least initially.

That said, my suggestions for more edit features(some probably obvious and already discussed hehe):

Add-to-selection: I tried building a fountain with a rectangular base. When I was punching into it to make the bottom it was easy enough to make the selection needed. The trouble was when I wanted to make a change to the rim afterwards. I had to select then raise each piece individually to be assured of getting only exactly what I wanted moved(ugh). Even if this were limited to selections on the same plane it'd help.

Texture painting: Yeah.

"Radial" vertex manipulations: For making hills and such. The procedure, at least off the top of my head, would be to select an area, hold down the hotkey and then move the wheel. Cubes near the center get the full effect, near the edges not as much. With several iterations(esp. with an add-to-selection) making detailed rolling terrain would become simple.

Hm. That's all I can think of! Everything else I'd want is already covered LOL.

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