Which quake 2 modeler should I use?

by e:n:i:g:m:a on 02/25/2004 05:58, 27 messages, last message: 03/11/2004 20:15, 5385 views, last view: 05/05/2024 03:30

Ok, so I wanna modify some of the quake 2 models so that they include the weaps in the one model so Cube will use them, what program (preferrably free) would you (anyone) recommend?

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#8: The problem with VWEP

by Pxtl on 02/26/2004 05:51

Is that, if multiple weapons are to be supported, it creates tons upon tons of superfluous data. You get poly-by-poly modelling of 9 weapons and 9 new textures. Its horribly wasteful, and one of Cube's best features is the small size of all its resources - letting models get bloated would suck.

If possible, I'd much rather see a Q3/UT system - you make one poly in the model that you must move around, and the static weaponmodel is attached to that in game. Its more streamlined, easier to do as a modeller, and means that you are not limited to only representing the players holding the weapons they were made with.

Either way, if VWEPs are done, force the textures to a small size (64x64 or something) and use only 1 model. The original Slith model (which I loved to death, btw) was several megs to download.

There's still the issue of skating or not aiming - in Cube, players make no firing gesture when they shoot. In Quake, players skate when they fire and run at the same time, as the firing animation and the running animation are mutually exclusive. Q3 solved this by having the torso and legs animate separately. UT solved this by having the player hold their weapon in firing position while they run (a system I like).

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#9: Re: The problem with VWEP

by Aardappel on 02/26/2004 06:53, refers to #8

Yeah, the Cube animation and weapon handling is primitive at best. I think the "skating" is acceptable: though not realistic, it puts an emphasis on the fact that the character is shooting. What would be needed first is a "free" in-game weapon model, and one that is "generic" i.e. doesn't look so specific that it looks odd with any of the actual weapons. If we had this I would certainly have a go adding this for the next release.

Sauerbraten... completely open issue. I would hope that we'd switch to MD3 or even better a bone based format at some point.

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#10: Re: Yeah...

by |apskaus on 02/26/2004 17:34, refers to #6

- "but the problem with simply merging the two models is that you only have one texture to go around. "

What i meant was the WWEP models. I might be wrong, but these are exactly like player models, but it's only the weapon, animated as if it were held by an invisible player. You render the player model, THEN the WWEP model with the exact same location and rotation.
This system is kind of a hack though. It wasn't originally in quake2 at all IIRC. Someone made a mod that allowed you to see the weapon a player was carrying, and ID actually implemented it into the game with a patch.

What we really need is a brand new player model, made for cube. We'd get rid of all of the standard quake2 anims that aren't used and is just hogging memory. Using the Q3\UT system that Pxtl mentioned would be ideal, so that we could have one model for each weapon. There's only two questions; what should cube-guy look like, and who's gonna make him? :)

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#11: Well...

by e:n:i:g:m:a on 02/26/2004 17:37

I didn't mean that you had to add more weapons, or allow monsters to have different weapons, just that if you downloaded a quake 2 model, that cube would put the weapon designed for that person/monster/creature into the game.

If UT or Q3 modles have a fixed weapon that is attached to the model, that would be even better for cube (or Sauerbraten)

Oh yeah, just as long as there are monsters 'n such in models for UT or Q3, b/c I enjoy blasting the hordes of monsters in cube, rather than shooting up people (which most shooters are).

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#12: My point was that

by Pxtl on 02/26/2004 18:28

Q2 models often don't have just one model - they have the full weaponspread animated in full redundancy. I think cube should avoid that. The reason I mentioned "merging" is that a player was asking if there was some way to merge the weapon model and the player into a single model so that it would work in cube now, not later.

As for the issue of model spec - Aard, I respectfully disagree. The fire animation is hideous in Q2 when using rapidfire weapons such as the Hyperblaster or the chaingun - the player simply skates through the entire room, twitching a little while they alternate between two frames of animation. At the end, they go through their full recoil animation, which makes no sense for some of these weapons (imagine the recoil animation for the Cube gauntlet). It also is just plain silly when used in mid-air on low-G maps. Ah, Q2 was so sad about the model layout - the same single frame used for being airborne, climbing ladders, and swimming, but the game had 5 different taunt animations. Very sensible layout.

I think the best approach would be a compromise. First, add muzzle flares - these are just plain necessary. Second, for low ROF weapons like the RL and the Sniper, use the standard, Q2 firing animation (but maybe a little quicker) - then it looks good - the player runs a bit, shoots, then keeps running. For rapidfire weapons, don't use the firing anim at all. So, make sure your models are holding the weapons in firing position in their regular run animation. This would be much more appropriate for the gauntlet or the chaingun which should have no graphical recoil.

As for the vwep issue, here's my take - you design a single vwep for the character. You make a skin spec such that all vweps for all characters can use the same skin. Then, you make it so different weapons look the same, but have different skins on the standard vwep. This would allow modders to create new graphics for new weapons as they design new weapons.

For variety's sake, you could make 3 different weaponmodels - one for HTH weapons (gauntlet), one for bulky weapons (rocket, shotgun) and one for sleek weapons (minigun, sniper).

Of course, this would all be rendered moot by getting md3 support, but that's easier said than done.

Oh, and since you asked, the monster model Slith has a full set of unique VWEPs that look nothing like the Quake 2 counterparts. It was actually very famous for this - the hyperblaster weapon is actually fully animated with moving parts.

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#13: Re: My point was that

by Aardappel on 02/27/2004 08:07, refers to #12

the whole weapon issue has just landed on my TODO list, now lets see what happens :)

Will check out the slith weapons, they could be good to use.

Muzzleflash: yeah why not... might be a fun use of dynamic light

Will have to see about the firing anim... right now we have only 1 high speed weapon, the chaingun. Maybe the fist, but its not used as much.

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#14: Re: My point was that

by fsmunoz on 02/27/2004 15:05, refers to #13

The model+weapon situation is the one thing that I would probably would like to see in standard Cube. I have several ideas for a game, but those are more suited for a Cube mod, because I understand and actually appreciate Cube's simplicity, both as an engine and as a game.
That being said the possibility of having a mechanism to change models and weapons in Cube would be wonderful since it would benefict Cube's own gameplay and also be a major bonus for people that want to write mods, since many modes gain their own personality not only by changing gameplay but also by changing models and weapons.
If there is a way to add this to Cube without compromising the design philosophy it would really be great.
I'm not reallt familiar with what mechanism should be better though; I have *red* about VWEP here in the forum, but I'm not at ease with the relative merit of it. In the end some solution that makes possible a model to change weapons and make them visible to other players is welcome.

Best Regards,

fsmunoz

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#15: Well...

by Lethedethius on 03/06/2004 12:06

An update to the weapon models is a much needed thing. I know jack about modeling... but I can try to create... I have 3ds Max 2 & 4. If you'll send me beginners guides/how to's then I'd love to create a weapon (knife or gun or w/e :)...) for cube, I have awesome idea's for how weapons could look :)

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#16: dcp

by Lethedethius on 03/06/2004 12:09

is that dcp dood still around? Yo D, you think you could make a few custom models to replace the originals, and also make a badass barretta :)

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#17: Re: dcp

by dcp on 03/06/2004 18:45, refers to #16

i've done some and at the moment, i'm finishing and preparing them to pass them to aardappel...

and: i don't like berrettas, i've designed a p99 instead... ;-)

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#18: Free

by AkLiX on 03/06/2004 19:42

How about listing your favorite FREE quake 2 modeler, that will make it a little more challanging, but helpful.

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#19: Re: Free

by dcp on 03/07/2004 20:15, refers to #18

the only one i know of is the one you mentioned in your question. q2modeler

i have no link to it available, try feeding the google... ;-)

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#20: Re: ..

by CyBeRwAsTe7 on 03/10/2004 19:50, refers to #1

Have you tried Milkshape 3d? justsearch for it...

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#21: Re: ..

by dcp on 03/11/2004 01:26, refers to #20

but milkshape3D is not free. ok, it's only 25$ or so (the reason i bought it), but he wanted to hear about free modeling apps...

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#22: ..

by >driAn<. on 03/11/2004 12:53

@dcp:
Which skinning app do you use? Im sure not milkshape...

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#23: Saving models in .md2 format?

by ed_nabisco on 03/11/2004 17:35, refers to #1

I’m with you, and I am looking for some help as well.
I am trying to make my own models in Milkshape3D. I have made a tree, but Milkshape’s “Save as” option only allows you to save in the “.ms3d” format. I have tried to export the tree as a Quake 2 “.md2” file, but when I do I receive an error message that says “Found vertices with no bone! No animations are exported!” This is odd, because I am not trying to animate the model. I have looked through the doc and I am not sure how to assign “bones.” I know it is related to animation, but I am not interested in animating the tree. Any help on what I need to do to save the file in the .md2 format would be appreciated?

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#24: ..

by >driAn<. on 03/11/2004 17:41

To save the file as md2 goto:
File->Export->Quake 2 (md2)

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#25: Re: Saving models in .md2 format?

by dcp on 03/11/2004 18:26, refers to #23

to export to .md2 you have to:

- go to the model tab of the toolbox and select 'joint'

- place one joint somewhere (it doesn't matter where it is, i always place it somewhere near the center of the model)

- edit -> select all

- go to the joints tab of the toolbox

- choose 'assign'

- don't forget to set the total frames value to 0

- export to .md2 (the export plugin needs ONE joint with all vertices assigned to it, don't ask me why...)

- remember that we're talking about static mapmodels ;-)

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#26: Re: Saving models in .md2 format?

by dcp on 03/11/2004 18:28, refers to #25

argh, not 0, it should be 1 (the 'total frames' value)

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#27: Re: Saving models in .md2 format?

by ed_nabisco on 03/11/2004 20:15, refers to #26

Awesome!
Thank you for your quick and helpful advice. I never would have figured that out because I haven’t started working with animations. I am sure others will find this information helpful. Thanks again dcp.

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