Removing thirdpersondistance

by b3ast on 09/05/2010 23:56, 21 messages, last message: 09/07/2010 03:12, 3358 views, last view: 05/04/2024 14:56, closed on 09/07/2010 03:17

Thirdpersondistance is a command in Sauerbraten that basically allows the player to go into thirdperson and see the amount of map detail to their choosing. This in my opinion is somewhat like a wallhack. For example: an ictf match starts on urban_c and 2 players go on while one other stays back. The player staying back can tell his/her teammates where opponents are and where to attack them while they are off guard/by surprise, where to avoid them, etc. In my opinion, players should only be able to communicate with their teammates and theirselves based on their default thirdpersondistance (20) or their firstperson view.
Please post any feedback.

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#2: thirdpersondistance

by LeftClickersPhone on 09/06/2010 00:57

It is extremely difficult to aim correctly in third-person, thus balancing this out. Also, because everyone has this ability and (access to) the knowledge of how to use it, it is fair. If they chose not to read them, it is not our fault.

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#3: ..

by Razgriz on 09/06/2010 01:43

or you could just limit its access to coopedit. simple

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#4: Re: thirdpersondistance

by b3ast on 09/06/2010 04:30, refers to #2

@LeftClickersPhone

Yes all players have access to it, but all players have access to wallhacks too and other cheats but we are still against them. Thirdpersondistance gives an unfair or at least non-standard advantage and allows players to basically see through walls (over them). This shouldn't be in Multiplayer or outside of coopedit imo.

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#5: Re: thirdpersondistance

by LeftClicker on 09/06/2010 05:23, refers to #4

I disagree; thirdpersondistance is easily-used and well-documented and has pros and cons versus cheats, which are generally difficult to implement and are unfair and unstandard. I agree that maybe servers should have to option to disable it, but it shouldn't be outright removed from multiplayer.

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#6: Bad idea, for me...

by cuberz on 09/06/2010 05:46

Ok, you want to get rid of this variable, but I always wonder why things that could be harmful for most of the people must be seen like a treat, when in fact there are many ways to cheat than this.

As an example: I use thirdpersondistance within a script that I use for recording movies of clan battles, and I use it to vary the distance from the playermodel, in order to make the movieclip more interesting... please leave it as is. :(

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#7: Re: Bad idea, for me...

by cuberz on 09/06/2010 05:47, refers to #6

Sorry for double-posting, I meant *harmless* :P

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#8: ..

by _mIscreant on 09/06/2010 06:31

Agreed with beast. Actually, why not just remove thirdperson from multiplayer (except coop) all together? Even at the default distance its possible to bind thirdperson + a wide FOV to see around corners. Which is a disadvantage to people who don't know it exists or how to bind it.

Cuberz, I'm sure it could be taken out of gameplay while still allowed during demo recording.

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#9: Re: ..

by LeftClicker on 09/06/2010 07:52, refers to #8

If they don't know it exists, then they didn't read the documentation that came with the game.

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#10: Re: ..

by SheeEttin on 09/06/2010 09:18, refers to #9

The docs are more of a reference. Anything you need you can usually get from the GUIs now.
(Unless you're learning to map, then you read editing.html, but that's much less dense (and also rather old).)

In any case, just disabling these commands in multiplayer isn't going to stop anyone, It'd probably be a one-line change to disable or enable it.

Besides, Cube 2 is usually much too fast and disorganized for such a situation b3ast proposed. Only time I can see it happening is clan matches or tournaments, and in either case I'm sure it'd be caught eventually.
(Oh, and it'd be easier to cheat like this by just making everyone show up on the radar or alpha-blending all geometry.)

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#11: ..

by Acuerta on 09/06/2010 11:59

Sorry to say, but those who struggle to keep thirdperson don't really know much about the problems in Sauerbraten.


"(Oh, and it'd be easier to cheat like this by just making everyone show up on the radar or alpha-blending all geometry.) "

If something can be done easily .cfg and its useful / close to cheating, then like 60% of the better players do it. If it requires modifying .cpp files
(which is way more effort) like 2 or 3 players will dare to do it.


"Besides, Cube 2 is usually much too fast and disorganized for such a situation b3ast proposed. Only time I can see it happening is clan matches or tournaments, and in either case I'm sure it'd be caught eventually."

Wrong, with an onrelease bind you can overview the map in like a millisecond.
It would be caught? Yeah and then? As long is an ingame command, why not use it? If everyone knew about this games would end up with dozens of people standing behind walls and looking into the floor. Well if thats what you want, go ahead..

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#12: Re: Bad idea, for me...

by b3ast on 09/06/2010 13:55, refers to #6

@cuberz

Yes purposes such as movie recording via demo or spectator would be great. I say spectator too because some servers have spec delay now and can prevent things such as unfair help. I personally would love to keep it for movie recording myself. Here's a list of things that I personally think should keep thirdpersondistance and thirdperson in general and what should not:

keep: Single Player, coop edit, demos
not keep: everything else

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#13: ..

by degrave3 on 09/06/2010 13:55

I am like stay behind wall and look to floor:) Thats very usefull versus shame campers who occupy corners.

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#14: thirdperson

by kaz1 on 09/06/2010 14:03

imo you need to pracitce and skill to use it to get an advantage because of that so its basically like weaponchanging/aiming and all the other stuff you practice to get better...or will we just start again the discussion that everyone should play with the same options and models blablabla...its just like some people can use it to get an advantage and some cant...some people cant do nadejumps---->\"lets remove the blowback\"...nah i would like to keep it like this

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#15: ..

by LeftClicker on 09/06/2010 19:42

@Acuerta: This is like saying we need to get rid of FOV. It grants players a useful but not unfair advantage, can be used by everyone and is not one-sided (e.g. has downsides). Sauerbraten is an open-source game, and people cheating by trying to play in thirdperson are the least of our worries.

When someone downloads Sauerbraten from the front page, they are told that to find out more about the game, they should see the documentation. If you go to the config, you will see many commands you can use to alter to game's appearance to your taste (e.g. fov, zoomfov, zoominvel, zoomoutvel, zoomsens). If you chose not to read these documents, you can't blame someone else. Sauerbraten is a game of skill, and not altogether balanced. (Ever play a shotgun versus machine gun game?) It is only two clicks from the front page to see these; they are included with the game in the download; they are written in a relatively easy-to-understand manner. I'll even link to it here:

http://sauerbraten.org/docs/config.html

So, if you think that thirdpersondistance is going to help players dodge bullets and aim better, feel free to suggest its deletion from the game.

@SheeEttin:"Anything you need you can usually get from the GUIs".
I agree with this philosophy; that the information should be available in-game, but I don't think it is quite accurate. AssaultCube has something like this where you type a command and the manual page pops up unobtrusively. Maybe Sauer should adopt this?

tl;dr: thirdpersondistance is not the biggest advantage one could get by a long, long shot.

Maybe Sauerbraten should have in-game manual pages.

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#16: Keep it

by megalo on 09/06/2010 22:15

I tend to always stick with the argument that if a feature is openly available to everyone, is easily implemented, and information about it is freely given in the docs, then there's nothing unfair about it. It's just part of the game. It is useful, but not unfair in the least bit.
/bind "Q" [ thirdperson 1 ; thirdpersondistance 450 ; onrelease [ thirdperson 0 ; thirdpersondistance 100 ; ] ]
ftw ^^

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#17: ..

by notas on 09/06/2010 22:46

what part about being able to see around corners doesn't seem like hax? maybe its not an unfair advantage (because everyone can have it) but like timers, it is an example of something that just hurts gameplay, and makes sauerbraten even more n00b friendly than it already is.

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#18: Deja Vu

by tentus_ on 09/07/2010 00:54

If you follow the logic of removing the command all the way through we should also cap resolution, framerate, and all visual effects to the lowest common denominator, because they offer possibilities to those who are willing to use them. This is obviously ridiculous, but the same logic applies: don't let anyone willing use anything to their advantage. Force the playing field to be level, regardless of whether it cripples what the engine can do.

I believe a couple of years ago the argument was whether physically bigger monitors offered an advantage. The answer is yes, but does that mean we should try to cap the rendering window size? No.

Leave it well enough alone, anyone clever enough to actually use it to their advantage should be applauded for being innovative.

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#19: ..

by Acuerta on 09/07/2010 01:17

.....
have you ever played the game? I see only 0101010101010110 in your head.
I fully agree with notas.
Looking behind walls = hax
How would you even know if someone wallhacked then? Is he using a process in the background or just thirdperson?
Thats just ridiculous, seriously.

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#20: Re: ..

by LeftClickersPhone on 09/07/2010 02:34, refers to #19

By this logic we should get rid of spectator mode, since I could get a second computer and spectate other players. In fact, we should turn off the engine rendering to a monitor, since I could see people walking toward me and fire before they do. In fact, let's delete Sauer from the Internet because there's a chance I could lose a game and look bad.

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#21: ..

by b3ast on 09/07/2010 03:12

@megalo

Yes it is available to everyone. That's not what is being discussed. Rather it's whether or not this should stay in the game because it affects gameplay like notas said.

@tentus_

Same thing. Players are all able to use this, but players are all able to use wallhacks. Wallhacks are still wrong and thirdpersondistance let's you see when you should not be able to from firstperson standpoint.

@LeftClickersPhone

The spectator issue is resolved via spec delay. All servers may implement it and it is allowed.

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