Sauerbasic

by tentus_ on 05/05/2009 05:47, 41 messages, last message: 10/17/2010 23:42, 15256 views, last view: 05/18/2024 22:30

Sauerbasic

What:
A mod which contains as close to no content as possible, without sacrificing any engine features.

Why:
The purpose is to provide a starting point for other mods. This will save hopeful game developers time, effort, and possible litigation by eliminating the need to hunt down all the contributors, instead allowing them to start subbing in content directly.

How:
Directly deleting whatever content possible from the Trooper Edition, and then going to the community for replacement assets for what cannot be deleted.

Where:
http://tsholden.com/games/sauerbasic.php
For other URLs see thread below.

When:
Now and hopefully for every future release of Sauerbraten.

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#1: Open Request for

by tentus_ on 05/05/2009 05:57

What I Need:

* Advice- Know something I need to know? Email me or post on the forum, please!
* Hudguns- The current ones need to be replaced with filler guns.
* Particles- I'd like to get fully public domain particles so that modders do't have to worry about it.
* Sounds- I need a complete set of public domain sound effects to replace the ones in place.
* Icons and menu images- The current icons and menus are 100% Sauer, we need something more, well, soulless.
* Music- I'd like to put a very, very small ogg file or two in the place of Fanatic's music (emphasis on small).


Please lend whatever help you can, I feel like this has been a gaping hole in the community for years!

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#2: Re: Open Request for

by Quin on 05/05/2009 09:18, refers to #1

Public Domain != Open Source; there's a big difference in meaning between the two.

The project itself, I dunno. I think it improperly showcases the engine as a game maker, part of the "learning process" is figuring out how everything works by stripping down your own copy - at least that has been my experience. I almost advocate the difficulty involved because it keeps all the Tom's, Dick's, and Harry's from pestering us with their trillion mods.

All that aside, there is merit in a basic version of the engine, at least for those who actually have a clue. I suggest you start a Sourceforge project with an SVN repository if you're serious about getting contributors. Just watch out for letting everyone have access to it, because the messier a repository becomes, the less likely you're going to get someone with skill to work on it.

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#3: ..

by mrpiddly on 05/05/2009 14:34

Will you be stripping out the sauerbraten game specific code or just the assets?

Also, adding more commenting to the code and writing documentation on how the engine functions would be helpful to prospective modders.

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#4: Re: Open Request for

by tentus_ on 05/05/2009 14:58, refers to #2

I agree that Public Domain != Open Source, which is part of the point of this project. I don't want any of our potential modders to give up before they start because they're not sure if they can use the sound effects or particles in a potentially commercial game. My goal is to provide the Cube 2 engine sans the Sauerbraten content that defines it as a game rather than, well, an engine.

@mrpiddly: I am disinclined to write out code, because I think that potential modders will want to reference it. Part of the reason I think that they will is because I have no plans to add comments either. Quin made a good point about how difficulty is part of the process: I simply want the difficulty to be based entirely in actually making stuff, rather than un-making stuff and begging for permission.

I'm also of the mindset that a good modder should actually be ignorant of how the details of the engine used to work. We've been so set in our ways the past few years that we've forgotten that there are other ways to do things. Perhaps by providing a basic version of sauer, other people will come in and implement new ways for stuff to be accomplished. I don't particularly care if their alternate methods are trivial (for example, having the folders in /packages organized by function rather than author), I just want to see some new ideas coming forth.

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#5: Great initiative

by Megagun_ on 05/05/2009 15:02

I've had similar ideas before, and I don't doubt the slightest that such a project could be really helpful for people who wish to mod or release stuff, but can only release a replacement-mod due to all the content involved.

Perhaps, though, before actually starting to do this all, you might ask yourself a question. What exactly would the licence 'goal' of the project be? GPL only? Guaranteed redistributability? Myself, I'd think that a Guarenteed Redistributability 'goal' would probably be best. This way, people don't have to worry if they can redistribute the packages, but they will have to read the licenses for individual files to see if they can modify the files. Ofcourse, getting as unrestricted files as possible would be best, but sometimes, a more restricted license on a file is best if the file is of insanely high quality. Public Domain assets are ofcourse really nice, since you would be able to use those for whatever you want.

The hudguns and playermodels issue, at least, has been solved, thanks to Geartrooper relicensing his files under CC-BY-NC: http://www.cubeengine.com/forum.php4?action=display_thread&thread_id=2080

One word of note, though, is that some projects and artists aren't too truthful about their licensing. For example, Tremulous' content is licensed under a Creative Commons license, though it contains animations ripped from Quake 3, and sounds from common archives that aren't free at all. UFO:AI supposedly contained some ripped material, too, and the same goes for Nexuiz (GPL content, but they use evillair's CC-licensed textures?), supposedly. You might want to talk to OpenArena's Leilol, since he/she knows way more about this than I do, in case you decide to use content from either one of those projects...

Lastly, I'd say that documentation of licenses is of the highest priority. There need not be ANY ambiguity about what the licenses are on a given file, at all, and you should be able to guarantee that whatever you're using ALL falls under that license (so no hidden 'yeah I actually ripped that from $COMMERCIALGAME' things). I've dealt with such cases previously, and it's a real motivation-breaker to hear that some of the content you're using, you can't actually use.

Additionally, it would be nice if there was an 'overview' documentation file which answered questions like "Can I use Sauerbasic in a commercial project?", and possibly list a list of files which prevent the user from using Sauerbasic in a commercial project..

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#6: Re: Great initiative

by tentus_ on 05/05/2009 15:34, refers to #5

Good post, thanks for the info.

Really, to have functional copy of Sauer you only need a handful of sounds, models, and textures. Worst comes to worst, I can record my own sounds for use, I'm already using some of my own textures, and as you mentioned, Gear just generously opened up his stuff under the CC-BY-NC license. I'm still actually planning to cut out at least one of the player models (mr fixit takes up about 1/4 of my download size), and I need to find replacements for DCP's stuff.

An overview document sounds like a good idea: I'll look into drafting one once I've gotten more done on this.

Does anyone know where the 'morning' skybox is being referenced from (or mars and desert, too)? I can't find it mentioned anywhere in the cfgs, but the filler map I've got insists that its trying to load it as an envmap.

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#7: ..

by kripken on 05/05/2009 16:00

Hey tentus,

This sounds like a good project to do, and I'd like to help:

1. For my own project, I have worked on replacing inappropriately-licensed stuff in sauer (anything not 'free', and also I consider CC-BY-NC to be inappropriate, as -NC is problematic for many reasons). This includes the gui skin, particles, etc etc. I would be willing to license my stuff under CC-BY-SA if this could be helpful.

2. For sounds, I recommend the OLPC sounds torrent. It's CC-BY 3.0.

http://www.mininova.org/tor/1276284

3. I also have a script that converts fisheye images to skydomes that are usable in sauer, which I used to process philo's nice (and usable) images

http://www.philohome.com/skycollec/skycollec.htm

I can make the script as well as the output available if you want.

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#8: ..

by Hirato Kirata on 05/05/2009 16:28

you're welcome to browse through sandbox and nab my scripts (zlib) and my artwork (CC_BY_SA), which is several textures, a GUI, particle replacements (mind you the flames are baby-rabbit's, though he public domained them), blend brushes (the remainder are nieb's, I believe he also uses CC-BY-SA) and cloud layers.

there's probably some other stuff too, I'm not aware of right now... damn this memory :D

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#9: Re: ..

by tentus_ on 05/05/2009 18:04, refers to #8

Oh, excellent, thanks.

Does anyone have any pointers about setting up an SVN repository? I've never done it before (never put anything on sourceforge, actually).

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#10: ..

by kripken on 05/05/2009 18:40

I recommend Google Code over Sourceforge - much easier to work with, and faster.

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#11: Re: ..

by Quin on 05/05/2009 20:24, refers to #10

Google forbids the ZLIB license. They consider it to be pollution.

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#12: Re: ..

by tentus_ on 05/05/2009 20:50, refers to #11

Yeah, there's not a way around that, is there? I made a Google Code thingy but the licensing options don't match, so I think I'll delete it.

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#13: ..

by kripken on 05/05/2009 21:00

Yeah, Google Code is strict with their license options.

But you can do what e.g. hopmod does - have the code under the BSD license. This is actually possible from a legal standpoint (as long as you don't delete the zlib license text - which doesn't contradict the BSD license - and the copyright notice).

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#14: Re: ..

by tentus_ on 05/05/2009 22:55, refers to #13

Ok, I have put it under the BSD license on Google Code, you can checkout at http://code.google.com/p/sauerbasic/source/checkout

If you want to help contribute, email me and I'll email you back. Since most of what we're doing is deleting/replacing I'm not terribly worried about security, but please be sure to identify yourself by a name that I'll recognize (ie tentus_ rather than TSHolden).

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#15: Brushes

by tentus_ on 05/17/2009 06:47

Kripken pointed out to me that there is 0 information on the brushes and caustics. Can anyone shed light on their origins and licensing?

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#16: Fixit

by tentus_ on 05/17/2009 09:41

Decided to go ahead and pull Fixit out of Sauerbasic, to cut down on filesize while I look for a playermodel alternative that won't shortsell the engine. However, I discovered that when adding bots, Fixit is manually defined and added in. Seeing as I don't see a way around this, but don't really have time to code up a solution that works, does anyone want to volunteer to help out with the miscellaneous coding that Sauerbasic will need? I have been repeatedly surprised by what is NOT cfg-controlled, so I foresee a need for a occasional goto guy for little coding jobs.

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#17: Re: Fixit

by Quin on 05/17/2009 13:22, refers to #16

I want to say yes, but I really can't guarantee I'll have the time for it when my all my other projects start back up.

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#18: ..

by kripken on 05/17/2009 19:17

Regarding caustics, if they must be created from scratch then here is a GPL program that it appears can create them:

http://www.dualheights.se/caustics/

But hopefully someone will clarify for us who made the originals, and give us permission so we won't need to replace them.

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#19: Re: Brushes

by eihrul on 05/17/2009 20:20, refers to #15

The brushes and caustics are public domain. Do with them whatever you want.

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#20: Re: ..

by tentus_ on 05/17/2009 20:26, refers to #18

I went ahead and made a quick set of 16 that is pretty close to the original Sauer set, so that we won't even have to worry about it. Of course, the engine expects 32 textures, so either I need to make 16 more or I need to recompile with an expectation of 16 or perhaps looking for a config file (which seems like the most logical answer).

Quin: I would love to enlist your help, even if it's just for a handful of little things that you can do in the lulls between the other, more serious projects you work on. Right now I need...
1. Mr Fixit removed from the bot code
2. Caustics set to 16 or perhaps loading from a cfg
3. The loading screen simplifed back down so that background_detail.png and background_decal.png aren't overlaid on it.

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