Respawning instead savegames in Singleplayer - no, thankyou.

by Joerg on 12/30/2008 00:31, 11 messages, last message: 01/07/2009 13:45, 2295 views, last view: 05/02/2024 06:28

I just tried sauerbraten the first time. It´s a really great game! ...until I found out there are no real savegames.

I found this in the docs:
"The problem with savegames is that they take away any tension in gameplay, since you play without fear because you can make frequent saves, and when you do have to reload, its just an annoyance (or frustration, if you forgot to save for a while because it was going so well)."

Sorry. I disagree as much as possible.

I have two answers:

1.
Please don´t speak for me. That is just bad style. I know what I want, and it´s the opposite of what you say. If you decide to do so - Ok, then remove savegames, it´s your code.
But please say it that way, and not as if nobody would like them.

2.
This is EXACTLY what I want. Play without fear. Save often. Reload immediately after something went wrong. Or just saving the game and continue tomorrow.


Please understand this is just feedback, not moaning. This is good code, the game looks very good, and it´s great you put it under a OSS-licence. But please rethink the idea of removing savegames. Please, please, please. It´s boring and stressful that way.

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#1: moot points

by Hapexamendios on 12/30/2008 00:55

http://cubeengine.com/forum.php4?action=display_thread&thread_id=1965

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#2: ..

by TomCat39 on 12/31/2008 21:24

Stress is boring???

You call black white and white black. Interesting.

on your #1 comment. THEY WEREN'T SPEAKING FOR YOU. So don't accuse them as such. They were speaking for themselves on how you would play with save games, which in turn is exactly how YOU want to play. In essence, you proved their point exactly.

On your #2 comment, just because YOU want to play this way doesn't mean everyone else does. The SP maps are not so lang as to not be possible in one short 30 minute session. If you can't beat it in 30 minutes, practice and get better till you can. Saves ruin the whole experience and takes away any and all challenge.

Once again we have the scrub mentality that wants to depreciate a game just so that it's easier for them. SP needs to have some challenge or there is no point in playing or replaying for that matter.

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#3: Re: ..

by Joerg on 01/01/2009 19:38, refers to #2

Hello Tomcat,

I think games are for entertaining humans. Not the other way around.

Please keep in mind that I gave *feedback*. That differs from criticising. It just expresses what *I* think would be an improvement. Others are free to agree or disagree. Both is good for a project, since we find out what people like and do not develope into a vacuum.

If I don´t get a savegames-feature, I will not play. This is absolutely OK for everyone, but I find it necessary to tell opensource-projects why did *not* chose their software. And I did so.

I am also an author of an opensource-software and think, feedback of users is important, since the author himself always has a different view upon his work.

To #1:
The documentation is written in a bad style at that point. It should be changed from
"The problem with savegames is that they take away any tension in gameplay, since you play without fear because you can make frequent saves"
to something more clear. You say they speak for themselves, and you are right. So it should be like "*We decided* for a special way of gameplay…" and not "Savegames are boring" (Read: Everyone thinks that. Nobody disagrees). This is just not true. Most games you can buy contain savegames, and I wouldn´t buy one without that feature, since it is essential for me.

That leads me to #2.
As I said above, developers/participants often have a different view on a project. You are a very good example. You tell me if I cannot complete the first single player level in about 30 minutes I should improve and come back.

Well, I have a job, I have a familiy, I have some more hobbies, and I cannot afford more than about 2 or 3 hours a week for gameplaying.

I didn´t complete that level in about 120 minutes. Then I went to bed, frustrated not to be able to save the game.
The next I tried again and had to leave home after 90 minutes, being not even as far as the first try.

Possibly I will start from beginning a third time since I have christmas holidays and some time. I do not know how much is missing. Possibly I have nearly done it, possibly a lot is still missing.

But, to be honest, I do not think I am the only 40-years-old guy that does not have a teenagers gaming skills like pressing four keys at the same time to kill 20 monsters with one shot while jumping diagonally backwards.

…and, btw, when I leave the house I want to continue playing when I am back, where I have been, even after 10 minutes of gameplay. And when I killed a monster in an unelegant way I´d like to reload the game and do better. And when I once again got killed after a minute I like to reload and play again with that beautiful rocket launcher instead of once again run around with a cheap pistol.

Remember: A game is for entertaining the gamer. Being *forced* not to save games does not make me to do so. It just keeps me from gaming.


I excuse for my bad english,
wish everybody a nice 2009,
Jörg

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#4: Re: ..

by MovingTarget on 01/01/2009 20:35, refers to #3

I'm not going to reply to your whole post, just a couple points:

> If I don´t get a savegames-feature, I will not play.
Don't you think that's a little petty? This game isn't about the singleplayer at all. The devs are even thinking about ripping the feature out altogether, and you're saying that if you don't get an SP feature, you're not going to play at all (unless I misunderstood you and you meant you won't play SP at all).

> Remember: A game is for entertaining the gamer. Being *forced* not to save games does not make me to do so. It just keeps me from gaming.
Alright then! You said you were an author of an open source project, didn't you? Code in the feature! If I'm not mistaken, the devs would be happy to include a patch if it conforms to the coding conventions and works well. The devs aren't paid for what they do (although I'm sure they wouldn't mind a donation) and can use all the help they can get.

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#5: Message censored by administrator

by Acord on 01/02/2009 01:36

#6: Re: ..

by Quin on 01/02/2009 01:50, refers to #3

I've updated the docs in SVN to properly show that it is the point of view of the developer(s).

Please realise that while Sauerbraten is Free and Open Source Software, the project development and design is a closed process. While some patches may be included if desirable (if they fix a bug or whatever); "tweaks" and "wanted features" have less chance of being so.

Blood Frontier will remedy this in the future anyway, when work on fully functioning singleplayer starts.

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#7: Re: ..

by spentron on 01/02/2009 12:01, refers to #3

I think the checkpoint system fully implemented would include the option to quit and save -- not to save and continue, only to quit.

The savegame wasn't removed, it was never implemented... all I can suggest is try an easier map, come back later. I don't consider any of the existing maps very hard, but still they aren't aimed at the beginner either, most certainly start on some other game. The mita maps are long though.

Another way to say "I will not play" is simply, you will have played, but will hit the "enough" point without success.

I think savegames are a great thing, it gives you a way to try scenarios over different ways, I always found that helpful to learn and entertaining.

The checkpoint system is a good experiment and kind of like it, but trying it it's really not that hard or tense, as well as illogical. Checkpoint saves would be better -- if map designers aren't cruel with them.

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#8: ..

by spentron on 01/02/2009 12:09

another thing -- when I first played with the checkpoints I ended up saying screw it I died once what's another 20 times? Then I started trying to not die at all, essentially to avoid that paradox.

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#9: Message censored by administrator

by ZGMF-X20A on 01/02/2009 17:50

#10: ..

by Joerg on 01/03/2009 19:09

Thanks for everyone who replied.

In the meantime I saw a thread a thread from the main developer that sauerbraten would/should go "Multiplayer-only". From that point of view savegames are useless anyway. Since I am not interested in multiplayer mode it looks like I was playing around with the "wrong type of game". I don´t want sound unfriendly, it´s a great game, I am just the wrong user. :-)

I am interested to walk through impressive levels with a "story" like in a movie, finding hidden switches, secret levels, having a "character" like Duke Nukem. Some shooting. Caring for rare ammo. Not just a running person with guns… Story, not all-time-shooting, but also not as difficult and time consuming like a RPG.

From that point of view I support the idea of removing single player. What I have found I would describe as "Multiplayer against the computer", not the kind of singleplayer I had expected, with a real mission.

Possibly I am wrong, please read it as friendly feedback. And thanks a lot for your work.

Bye from Hamburg, Germany,
Jörg

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#11: Re: ..

by spentron on 01/07/2009 13:45, refers to #10

All that stuff requires time and effort to develop, mostly making the levels. Sauer has had trouble getting levels at all. Cube 1 did have some efforts towards story missions (usually w/ mods) and more levels overall. But most of it is more a back to basics approach. Eisenstern was to have been a simple RPG/FPS which you might have liked, but is huge to make ... although it would have been very possible if Cube had ever captured the interest of .001% of video gamers.

Some Cube levels have had secrets but there is no counter like in Quake (1).

The sort-of story-based games I most liked wer Half Life and Max Payne but the combat was at least 5 times as hard as any existent Sauer level, as many commercial games are... you might like original Unreal, some story plenty of environment not very hard, just avoid close conflict, some good add-on stuff avail... myself I need to try the later "Excessive Mod" Unreal version sometime ;)

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