Destructable maps idea!

by gussak on 11/22/2008 22:03, 34 messages, last message: 07/07/2009 16:34, 26608 views, last view: 05/18/2024 23:34, closed on 10/04/2010 13:33

Hi!

The 1st thing I thought cube engine could be able to do, was to make it easier to implement destructable maps.

I mean, each shot or explosion or hack&slash, could destroy a certain ammount of the map (wall, floor etc).

That shot would leave a hole in a wall for example, and the same volume of the hole would be spawned in small debris cubes that would become dynamic and fall to the ground with physics.
And when it stops, then those debris would be reintegrated to the map structure re-becoming static again.

The problem is, I have no idea where to start coding it, but I am sure the most important thing the cube engine already have, cubes!!!

So I put this ideia to anyone willing to implement it. Unfortunately I am not being able to have time to implement it :/

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#12: Re: ..

by demosthenes_ on 11/24/2008 03:06, refers to #11

Are you reading anything that people are saying about lightmaps and other obstacles to this working properly? This isn't just about removing cubes or deforming their structure. It's about breaking maps, having no lighting, and generally making a complete mess of things.

Also, Tentus is right: any tactical advantage you may gain by making a hole is going to be instantly removed when you get stuck in it because of the messy terrain you've just made.

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#13: Re: ..

by gussak on 11/24/2008 03:25, refers to #10

yep, I have an idea of all the problems to the good looking and even the gameplay, this capability may arise.

yep, you are right, this should not be in the main code/release. I think the best way is to it come as a mod, cuz of that I am looking for directions, and now I found a really good tip like the marks shots leaves on the walls (I just dont understand why I havent thought, that is so obvious, b4 ^^)!!

Btw, concerning gameplay:
a) This is a new concept, and everything that is new, must be improved and have its flaws fixed.
b) Yep I know there is other deformable terrain games, but for some reason they arent so popular, I just think devs were not able yet to improve it enough to make it really (complaintless) fun.
c) This is a very cool feature, but it have huge potential problems! I know it!
c.1) Several limitations can be created, like the ammount of destruction accepted in a certain amount of time per each player.
c.1.1) critical map structures that cannot be destroyed.
c.1.2) may be even the slow regrowth/regen of walls/floor (or just of the critical structures)!
c.2) The changes could be delayed: after you do it locally, it would take a time to be uploaded to server, and another time to sync with all machines, only after that the real changes would be shown to you (the changes could be marked as transparent glowing yellow cubes on your local machine; may be red for deleted and green for added).
c.3) For each problem there will have an idea to solve it, thats the best part of new concepts, new challenges!

My point is, it just should stay around to ppl experiment so fix and improvements may be created :)

Now that I have a good clue where to look at, I just must figure out what I need to code, after that I just wonder all the problems that I may face, may be almost alone, and after some years (weekend coder ^^) I may fail shamely... or not xD.

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#14: Re: ..

by a~baby~rabbit on 11/24/2008 03:40, refers to #13

"So I put this ideia to anyone willing to implement it. Unfortunately I am not being able to have time to implement it" - you've changed your mind! Good to hear you're willing to take this on yourself - I for one encourage such weekend programmers.

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#15: Re: ..

by gussak on 11/24/2008 03:43, refers to #12

hi demosthenes,

My answer #13 covers most of what u said.
I just would like to add that my ideal of a map is a random map, a never boring map, a map were there is always something new to discover.
Not a silly but a well thought random map, with convincing results!

Yep, map makers now will get scared, I know ^^...

Have u ever played a game called Mount&Blade?
The 3D battle zone is randomly generated, the trees and mountains and water.
Ok it is simple, no random houses, no random fortress, no random paths between towns, no towns! I dont even remember of rocks on the floor! no random dungeons... no dungeons at all hehe.
Btw also, check for DungeonKeeper2, at the automatic map digging/created by the AI.

What I mean? if there are well planed rules, if you have a good map generating AI basis, a random map can be convincing and fun!

The only problem about this? this doesnt exist... yet! xD

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#16: ..

by Acord on 11/24/2008 03:48

you could probably set something up where the lightmaps were essentially slices, and then averaged together in the engine, but they'd be blurry as hell and almost totally inaccurate. What's the point?

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#17: Re: ..

by gussak on 11/24/2008 03:54, refers to #14

I still put those ideas to anyone that may be inspired on them to create their own solutions :)

I mean it, I have too little time, I code all the day at my job, so at home I have little brain cells willing to code a bit more.

I will probably code a bit, and some other time code a bit more, but I dont expect that to go much far away from that... ^^, cuz of that I was looking for a script way (portable thru versions) solution, so I could easy it up.

PS.: mmm... unless if I win lottery! XD

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#18: ..

by yoopers on 11/24/2008 04:00

Why not split the difference and add the ability for the map maker to make certain cubes destructible, and in predictable ways?

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#19: Re: ..

by demosthenes_ on 11/24/2008 04:39, refers to #18

See #4.

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#20: Re: ..

by yoopers on 11/24/2008 05:38, refers to #19

Sorry for the newb mapper question, but "wall" mapmodels and barrels work in MP?

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#21: Re: ..

by demosthenes_ on 11/24/2008 06:40, refers to #20

No. There was extensive discussion of that previously, if you care to look it up.

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#22: Re: ..

by yoopers on 11/24/2008 18:44, refers to #21

I recall reading that extensive discussion. #10 started discussing destructibles in MP and so the suggestion after that point in the thread to use mapmodels made me wonder if I had missed some new development. Apparently half the posters on this thread are talking about SP and the others, MP.

I could have been more clear in #18 that I was talking about MP. That post was also aimed rhetorically at the OP to some degree (ie - why make everything destructible when it ruins maps).

Gosh, the intarwebs foster such great communication and cheer! :-]

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#23: Re: ..

by Quin on 11/24/2008 20:43, refers to #22

It can be done in MP too, and the beginnings of that is already in Blood Frontier's SVN with doors. With recent developments the point is moot anyway.

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#24: bah

by kurtis84 on 11/25/2008 04:23, refers to #23

If the destructible mapmodels were part of mp, then you could just use mapmodels that explode. If you try for anything besides that, I think you'll never get it to look correct. Do you know how long it takes to compile lightmaps? WAY too long to be thinking of doing it during game play.

On the other hand, it might be feasible in cube1, as it doesn't use lightmaps....but it's still just a silly gimmick IMHO.

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#25: Re: bah

by JadeMatrix on 11/25/2008 04:50, refers to #24

Very true. A game needs to be designed from the ground up, ie as (an integral) part of its gameplay philosophy, to include destructible geometry, else it's just a 'gimmick,' like you said.

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#26: Re: bah

by Quin on 11/25/2008 11:23, refers to #24

Well yeah, that *is* what *I* was talking about in the first place. Models just offer more in terms of destruction and dynamic state control. You can always have dynamic shadows for them too.

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#27: I might be interested in this project

by Hypocorism on 06/19/2009 10:10

I\'m interested in seeing the destructible terrain come into play because there currently exists no (good) sandbox MMORPG. Wurm comes close, but the combat is significantly flawed and no fun. If, as you have said, the light mapping is not a problem in Cube 1, then this would be a good place to start. I\'m interested in putting significant work into getting a mod working where you can destroy parts of the environment. (IE, chop down a tree with an axe, break apart a door, dig a tunnel with a pickaxe/shotgun/whatever). I can do code and also some texturing. I don\'t need to lead the project, I\'d be happy working with someone with the whole destructible terrain vision. We can try to solve the problems inherent as they arise.

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#28: Researched a bit, have a question

by Hypocorism on 06/19/2009 10:42

I've just been playing around with Cube 1 and the lighting doesn't seem to be affected in the same way when you make adjustments. The lighting still looks good in that game. How do the 2 lighting systems differ? Shouldn't it be possible to roll back features of Cube 2 to use Cube 1's lighting system?
Funny stuff with the for loop joke, demosthenes. I didn't see this thread before I posted. I'll look closer next time.

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#29: Re: Researched a bit, have a question

by baby~rabbit on 06/19/2009 11:30, refers to #28

Programming is not plug and play like lego. Cube 1 and 2 are very very different creatures - Cube 1 regenerates the geometry on every frame, horrendous but it worked as the maps (and lighting) are 2D-ish... Cube 2 is true 3D, the geometry is basically cached and all lighting is pre-rendered so it still achieves goo d performance.

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#30: heres another idea.

by |ice|sub-zero|L on 06/20/2009 03:33

instead of the ground, what about glass, in this game it won't break, how about it does, but it'll come back after a certan amount of time?

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#31: Thanks for the feedback

by Hypocorism on 06/22/2009 11:21

That makes a lot of sense. I did get the impression that cube 1 maps are more like the doom wads of yore. For what I\'m thinking of, it would have to be cube 2. I don\'t think you could achieve a realistic effect when you cut down a tree in cube 1. As for the lighting, it\'s not really that important. How about just pulling the current lighting system and have levels of darkness be generated by height from the ceiling?
For example, if you\'re out in the sun, everything would be full bright. Dig a tunnel into the ground, and it starts getting darker. Of course, you\'d have to have something like, if there is a 1 meter hole, get darker as you go down. If there is a 1000 meter hole, stay full bright. You could regulate brightness and darkness based on the rising of the sun and moon. The lighting doesn\'t have to be perfect.
I think I also solved the map breaking difficulty. Regulate the size of the cubes to make maps so that they\'re all the same, and only destroy sections based on that cube size. Map breaking and jagged edges happen because people use cubes of different sizes incorrectly right?

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