Cube 3? Cube 2? WTF?!?

by Deehy on 09/29/2008 13:30, 40 messages, last message: 10/28/2008 02:13, 11441 views, last view: 05/18/2024 21:44

Will be Cube 3?
In CVS of Cube 2 are no serious changes! Only some simple code/shaders/maps changes. IT'S 5-7 MONTHS!!! How much time still for release next Sauerbraten version?

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#1: Patience, you padawan?

by tentus_ on 09/29/2008 14:24

None of us are on a real schedule, and the last thing we want is to force our leads to work when they're not feeling it: that's one of the most efficient ways to bun someone out that I know of. Just chill and be patient, Sauer's deep enough for everyone to keep playing the current release for months (maybe even years) to come.

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#2: Re: Patience, you padawan?

by Deehy on 09/29/2008 16:27, refers to #1

I just want when will be released nex Sauer... :9 But i understand you. Thanks for reply.

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#3: Re: ..

by Quin on 09/30/2008 04:36, refers to #3

Gotta agree with the troll on this one :P

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#4: Re: ..

by tentus_ on 09/30/2008 05:06, refers to #3

Really? 0_o

...

We may have different definitions of "depth". When I say depth, I mean there's still something fun and/or original to do after X time. (So a game with a depth of, say, 90 would run out of fun stuff to do after 90 hours of gameplay). By this definition, almost any engine that comes with a fun editor has a depth equal to the player's attention span. I have a very long attention span, so to me Sauer has a bottomless depth.

I'd be interested to know the differences in how people perceive depth in videogames, however subtle those differences may be. That's make for a great article at some point. *ponder ponder* Hey, lurkers... speak up, give me some material for a future article!

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#5: Re: ..

by demosthenes on 09/30/2008 06:36, refers to #4

Depth of videogame != depth of storyline.

I think depth of a videogame has to do with its profundity (which is not the right word, but most nearly fits what I am looking for).

Things like Portal (placeable permanent teleportation devices), Garry's Mod, and to some extent, WoW.

Sauerbraten has intense levels of depth, but they're not necessarily easy to access. The fact that you could completely replace every map asset for each map gives the potential for insane depth!

I can expound if anyone's interested in the train of thought.

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#6: ..

by a~baby~rabbit on 09/30/2008 07:39

Depth of the game vs depth of the engine? Given the huge increase in features in the last release maybe we now need to wait for the artists to catch up and make use of them all :P

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#7: Re: ..

by tentus_ on 09/30/2008 14:44, refers to #5

Interesting point. I hadn't even considered story depth in my equation (obviously, Sauer is about as shallow as they come as far as story... with the exception of a few noble efforts by mitaman et al, there has been no attempt at consistent story or even setting).

It's definitely true that Sauerbraten's depth is not readily accessible. But isn't that an essential aspect of pacing, and we're simply accomplishing it by a learning curve rather than artificial barriers and requirements? User skill could actually be viewed as an excellent way to do pacing, simply because you will never be overcoddling a player.

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#8: ..

by freferferf on 09/30/2008 15:29

a mature and stable engine is easier to mod, no? be careful what you wish for.

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#9: Re: ..

by Maxime on 09/30/2008 17:53, refers to #7

Eisenstern developer says:

"YES, WE CAN"

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#10: Re: ..

by demosthenes_ on 09/30/2008 20:27, refers to #7

Yes, players self-limiting by skill is a useful way to do it, but the majority of players seem to never get beyond creating bad maps with worse texturing and no lighting. In that way, our content-creation base is limited, and we seem to have trouble expanding it. I know I have had little to no help at all from the community on at least one posting on Quadropolis, when all I was looking for was some advice on how to finish up the map.

So really, the community at large (myself included!) could probably be doing more to help newer members learn the content creation tools. But this is only tangentially related to the issue of depth in Sauerbraten.

One of the things that I think causes Sauerbraten to hide its true depth is the fact that each of the several beautiful SP campaigns we have (an SP game spanning several maps) are completely disparate, but not large enough to be really satisfying (in my experience, anyway) when completed. A community-wide SP campaign project with a set theme and basic storyline would be enormously helpful with that.

In a project like that, responsibility for individual maps could be given to volunteers, who then return the completed (shaped, textured, lit, monstered, all according to the chosen theme and storyline) maps to whoever is in charge of managing the project.

Ugh, I feel like I'm missing something, but I can't think of what. Posting anyway.

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#11: Re: ..

by tman_elite on 09/30/2008 21:29, refers to #10

I think a main single player storyline would be a great addition to sauerbraten. It's got a good multiplayer, and the new(ish) ctf mode adds a lot of "depth" to the multiplayer. However, sauer's singleplayer is lacking. If sauer gets a solid storyline and a decent string of single player maps together, this would add a lot of "depth" to the game as a whole. Of course, we can keep the current singleplayer maps as "sub-campaigns" or "bonus missions." Or we could even take a set of the current missions and expand them to be the main story.

In my mind, there are a few things that could be really helpful for this:

1. Some kind of support for cutscenes, whether with "cameras" in the engine, or simple video support. It's hard to tell a complex story with just text at the top of the screen.

2. An option to keep statuses like health, ammo, etc. from one level to the next. That way maps could be smaller (which would make them run on older machines too) and still be linked together.

3. Trigger-spawned monsters. This would make it easier for ambushes, reuse of parts of a map (while still having to fight monsters), etc.

4. I think the monsters need work. I read in one of the docs that the monsters were just fillers until actual monster models were found/created. If they could be even just textured to follow a single theme (that fits the main story) it would add a lot in my humble opinion.

Sorry about the ranting. I realize these may not be realistic or worthwhile. They're just suggestions.

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#12: Tetris is deep

by yoopers on 10/01/2008 01:04

Depth to me doesn't mean a bunch of nifty features, storyline, and killer art. It means that the game allows for the exploration of a nearly unlimited problem space, and does so in a way that encourages replay. Examples of this would be chess, Go, or in the realm of video games, Tetris.

I think MP in Sauer is plenty deep when you analyze it with this definition of depth in mind. Heck, most MP FPSes would fair favorably under this definition, since you have human actors creating unique situations on a continual basis. It seems this discussion is focusing on SP almost as an acknowledgment that MP in Sauer is probably as deep as it needs to be.

But I would like to challenge that somewhat and wonder out loud what could contribute to a deeper MP game. New modes certainly seem to have extended Sauer's reach over the last year, with regen in particular pulling in many new players. But regen doesn't seem to increase the depth of the game for more experienced players, who tend to gravitate to duels with players they know and respect, allowing the other player to create the depth they seek.

So, non-rhetorical question: what would create more depth in MP? New weapons that allow for new tactics? New map features that change the environment? Curious what others think.

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#13: Re: ..

by SheeEttin on 10/01/2008 04:40, refers to #11

1. This would be very nice... Maybe we can backport something from that moviecube mod?

2. Easy to do, I think. Anyone with more C++ skill than me (i.e. any) want to try?

3. Already possible, kinda. Triggers + trap doors + teleports.

4. Yeah, it's been that way for as long as I can remember. Hopefully deathguppie is still working on some monster models. (deathguppie: you're doing a great job! please keep modeling!)

yoopers: dynamic environment would be... delicious.
Maybe someone has an idea for implementation?

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#14: ..

by Quin on 10/01/2008 05:42

I think you're forgetting one thing, there is an expressed disinterest in developing singleplayer for Sauerbraten. So think for a moment, what project around here has a storyline, multiplayer, new modes and weapons (with the possibility for more), and an actual interest in developing singleplayer (and perhaps coop)?

Blood Frontier guys :D I think everyone is seriously overlooking it when they make requests and debate about the general community. To be honest, Blood Frontier could be in serious danger because the amount of interest in development has dropped staggeringly.

I'm basically the only one doing something for it at the moment, apart from eihrul's code tweaking. Where's all the people with the idea when it's time to work? Like most other coders, I won't write a lick of code unless I have some sort of motivation to do so, and right now - with nobody around - that drive is almost zero.

Code changes in BF lately have been mostly bugfixes or enhancements I come up with on demand while I'm mapping - which is not unlike the state of Sauerbraten now, with the exception that people actually play it. Cube may have a tighter development structure, but there are others around here who are looking for help. Hint: http://cubedev.blogspot.com/

So now you have the resources, it's all up to you guys (the community). I try my best to stitch everything together nicely but there is only so much one crippled man can do.

"Deeds, not words."

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#15: Re: ..

by SephoD on 10/01/2008 09:19, refers to #14

I must agree with Quin, but also point out what is happening with Eisenstern at the moment. We now have at least 3 3d artists, music composer, 4 really progressive coders and a lot of people coming up with ideas, making a story etc.

I really encourage everyone to take a look at what has happened to the game at http://sourceforge.net/projects/eisenstern/

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#16: Re: ..

by mitaman1 on 10/01/2008 13:07, refers to #14

Quin said:

"expressed disinterest in developing singleplayer for Sauerbraten"

Sorry to say I must agree. I think I've been the only person attempting to make a "good SP experience" for Sauer, with large maps, many new textures, and the "Private Stan Sauer" storyline. To be honest, I'm a bit bummed no one else is trying the SP route.

Anyway, I have a rather large new episode in the works, again with all new textures, some cool new models, and an attempt to capture the look/style of HL2 & FEAR.

Come on guys, lets see some real SP attempts at mapping. It's no fun being alone at this.

MitaMAN

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#17: Re: Singleplayer depth

by tentus_ on 10/01/2008 15:46, refers to #16

Ok, so on the Quin-Mitaman challenge, I'm going to resume work on an SP map I gave up on a long time ago (anyone remember the Ogro language I devised?)

Before I get too deep back in the project, I have an open question for demosthenes and the other philosophers in the community: given that the map I'm working on is striving to capture the feel of ICO, what could be done to deepen that experience? While ICO was a fantastic game and I love it to pieces, the replay value is not a strength: I can only play the game about once a year (unless I'm practicing for a speed run). What could I do to capture the feel of ICO but make it more replayable and, in theory, deep?

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#18: Re: ..

by Maxime "Max of S2D" Lebled on 10/01/2008 17:31, refers to #15

Seconded.

Anyways, I wonder what Cube 3 could bring... just improving Cube 2 is enough. :p

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#19: ..

by Osbios on 10/01/2008 17:48

The connection between the script language and the game is too incomplete.

I think this is one of the reason why there are just a few single player maps.

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#20: Re: Singleplayer depth

by demosthenes on 10/01/2008 18:59, refers to #17

Singleplayer depth is a tricky one. ICO's case looks like a particularly tricky one. It appears to me to be a basically linear storyline, where the player must complete certain actions in a certain order to attain objectives.

One of the simplest ways to expand the depth of a game done in that style (if it is in fact strictly linear) is to construct your castle in such a way that the puzzles can be completed in order as normal, but also be skipped through if the player is clever/observant enough. This method is hard to find a balance with.

I can be of more help with the depth problem if you can provide a bit more information about why it doesn't replay well for you.

ICO sounds like a great game! I'm having trouble figuring out how well it can be transliterated to Sauer, though. From what I read of the storyline, you have some serious challenges ahead of you!

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