SauerWorlds

by CrazyTB on 04/19/2007 04:14, 35 messages, last message: 04/29/2007 21:55, 5265 views, last view: 05/04/2024 20:21

I was thinking about something that might be called "SauerWorlds". The idea is to mix coopedit with wiki, and add some touch of mmorpg.

The idea is to have a place that should store maps ON SERVER, and that should have some user authentication. Then, each map would have permissions (what users are allowed to enter/read this map, and what users are allowed to edit this map).

This way, a group of people might join to coopedit some map, but they don't need to be online all at once. Also, they can make some changes alone, and others will still be able to see the changes. I think this should help coopedit a lot.

Of course, there should also be some way of navigating those maps. So, a main "worldmap" (which could look like a city with streets, buildings, rooms) would have teleporters to other maps.

For example, an user might tell his friends: "Meet me at 4th ave, number 13, room 7. The map we will be editing will be available there."

Of course, this "world" can be abused somewhat easily, so there must be some way of avoiding abuses.

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#16: ..

by Eris on 04/20/2007 04:01

Hey im not done yet!

I though this might suit the topic discussed:

http://pr0t0n.homeip.net/~robertj/sauerville/

I dont quite understand the whole point of it haha

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#17: ..

by CrazyTB on 04/20/2007 04:11

To keep it simple, and more "feasible" in short-term, I was thinking in user-permissions only for entire maps, and not sectors. The "main world map" could be read-only, with just "rooms" with teleporters to other people "miniworlds" (from which they can share their maps).

Of course, a sauer-like MMO that combines Second Life or even Active Worlds (this one is an old 3D MMO game...) would great, but for now I would like to see just some sauer-wiki (which could eventually evolve into a sauer-mmo).

User login could be done by simple (small) changes in sauer client code, or even by typing some commands at chat window (commands that can be mapped to some GUI sometime), maybe just like IRC login.


BTW, all these cool ideas about a big sauer world where everyone would be able to edit some sector remembers me a lot some (cool) projects I found at Internet:
http://www.mrwong.de/myhouse/
http://www.icontown.net/
http://www.kennethfejer.com/isocity/
http://www.pixeljoint.com/thejoint/
http://www.x-panded.com/pixeldam/indexpixelmoon.html
http://www.x-panded.com/pixeldam/

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#18: ..

by Geartrooper on 04/20/2007 05:31

why not have a judging system to accept structures that are already lit. maybe a sub world for construction and a top tier for approved submissions.

robertj on irc did something similiar a while ago with sauerville. if you can find him he would be a good technical help. I haven't seen him around for a while though.

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#19: Good idea

by rcdracoaway on 04/20/2007 17:16

Neat Idea, and so far the easiest way I see of implementing this is to use the largest map size and make seperate ares, make a central area, then make \\\\\\\"doors\\\\\\\" that warp you to a new area, edited or not.

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#20: Re: Good idea

by Eris on 04/23/2007 07:07, refers to #19

I could be cool if none messed anything up for each other... I have allready my castle ready =)

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#21: i dunno

by Eris on 04/23/2007 08:19

Thoughts on a MMO coop-server:

I would like to see an open server, without passwords. The main reason for this, is that I dont see \\\"private\\\" or enclosed communities as something related to MMO. Another reason is that servers, that require no user-registration, and doesnt require any effort of the user to gain acceptance by the community; should gain more users by the ease of joining without any requirements. Freedom is the keyword here.
*yawn* Ok done with the ethical stuff...

The main problem with open coops, is that some goon could join and start deleting your stuff. We dont want that, so we boot him or whatever, but we cant do that forever and your stuff is gone now... how do you revert it all? \\\"Undo\\\" cant be done online, but that could be a solution. Another could be by retrieving the map stored online, but what if the map was overwrited? Some goons actually overwrite stuff.

Well I thought of this: if something/yourself periodically saves the current map on your box, then you should be able to retrieve it by copying the stuff old stuff, and inserting in on the server.
But loading one of the saved maps while playing online is a bit messy, it would be nice if maps could be loaded in a some sort of \\\"clipholder\\\"... you get the picture right?
But then again, this could cause trouble if someone copied the WHOLE map, and not just the tiny part of his own... and thereafter inserting the whole thing and thereby overwriting what others are making. And this applies to all players, if you know what i mean.

One solution could be that he/she kept a black map parallel to the servermap, and copying/pasting inbetween these. This could ultimately lead to he question: \\\"why not build offline then, and upload when you are done ?\\\"

Also, \\\"/sendmap\\\" only messes things more up, so this should be only be available to an automated process, but without a time interval! Instead the process (lets call it a bot) will /savemap every X minutes or so. I havent figured out when the bot will /sendmap, but I think a good solution could be voting. so efter every save, users may vote if the map should be sended.

It this completely off track?

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#22: ..

by Geartrooper on 04/23/2007 13:00

or have the server save the map periodically if this were possible.

"load map 8:05 p.m."

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#23: ..

by Eris on 04/23/2007 14:37

Thats why I thought of a client being a "bot"

completely automated that is... why not have a macro running when you have the server running anyway heh

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#24: ..

by RealNitro on 04/23/2007 20:39

Why just one 'root' server? Allow me to brainstorm for a while. I'll probably say some stupid/irrelevant things, but here I go anyway:

2 types of maps: nodes and leaves. Leaves are the maps that are pure coop-editing. Nodes are meeting-places and link (using special teleports) to other nodes and leaves. Every node is like a city. You can travel from city to city, hopping from server to server if necessary.

Why more then one node?
- Some people prefer futuristic, some prefer medieval (like me :). Medieval cities would center on rpg maps, futuristic cities on futuristic maps.
- Chatting: somebody chatting on a huge common server would be 'heard' by everybody.
- Exploring, growing a world: when everybody can set up a node/server/leaf, the net of worlds can expand like the internet.

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#25: Re: ..

by Eivets on 04/24/2007 00:14, refers to #24

Nothing against multiple servers. But to achieve what you described, one server can well host multiple maps. Even, if they are edited by different users.

I do like the idea of multiple servers which are connected, though. There are some problems with this approach which require a solution: If you want to have some kind of identity to keep control over who is traveling/editing the worlds, you need some system of signing identities. And you need to keep a network of trust or something, if you do not want a central server. Should be solvable. If the system includes some role playing aspects, with experience etc. or if you want to have an economy that's more difficult to solve. You want to keep cheating and griefing within limits... Sounds challenging.

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#26: Re: ..

by Eivets on 04/24/2007 00:21, refers to #22

In my server I experimented with cooperative editing. Basically a map is loaded when a world is joined by some user. Then the server sends the list of incremental changes relative to this base map to a joining client. I record the (relative) time, when some edit was done. So the server can even play back the editing events delayed by their relative times. It's like watching a video of someone editing the map. Quite funny. It's also easy to accelerate to twice the speed etc. Usually, the events are sent all at once, though. To keep the speed up, it required a small change to the client, so that it delays some updates to the world structure until all edits are done. Then it's quite fast.

This can easily be used to roll back changes after a certain time: Just send a reset event to all users and replay all changes up to that time.

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#27: Re: #25

by RealNitro on 04/24/2007 00:32, refers to #25

I was suggesting this for the original idea (from the first post), but non-centralised identity/logins would be a problem indeed.

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#28: this is lol

by Eris on 04/24/2007 12:18

Or you could make a map so huge that it would take several minutes... if not hours, with default gamespeed, to travel between the corners and edges of the map.

Make a room in the center where the spawn is, and have a teleporter there to each location. This could be buildt in singleplayer wth max gamespeed. Time will therefore act as a barier between each player location, because gamespeed cant be changed in multiplayer.

Sound stupid yea... but it could work without any modification to sauer.

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#29: ..

by Drakas on 04/25/2007 17:26

Meh...stupid idea, but thought to throw it in:
MMO-RPG editing: you basically travel from one place to another and edit stuff on your way :-)))

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#30: How to launch???

by Q009 on 04/25/2007 20:03

I downloaded patch.exe;
Cuted it to the main sauerbraten folder and patched;
Cuted patched sauerbraten.exe file to sauerbraten/bin folder;
OK! I launching, and! Exception!
I tested this in:
Sp edition, Normapmap edition, Gui edition and Spring edition!!! What i must?

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#31: Serwer

by Q009 on 04/25/2007 20:46

I can't connect to seewer!
How to connect???

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#32: Re: How to launch???

by Eivets on 04/25/2007 22:23, refers to #30

I am not really sure, what you are referring to. But although there is no patch.exe in my updater, I got the impression, that you are trying to connect to my server. If am wrong, then please ignore this.

As the installation description states, you need the water edition, currently. If you use one of the other editions it won't work and might lead to crashes (I tested this with the spring edition and it crashed). This is probably due to some missing files.

Additionally, there is no need to copy anything. Just run the updater as described and enter user name and password and the game starts and automatically connects to the server.

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#33: hey

by rcdraco away on 04/27/2007 16:03

I kinda am working on an idea kinda like this, a mega space map, and the first ship already has a few micro worlds in it, a footbal field, an arena, a hangar, supply depot, garage, close quarters hallways and rooms, and a main control room, tonight 4/27/07, if possible, I'll get it running on a server for coopedit.

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#34: ..

by CrazyTB on 04/29/2007 03:20

I like the RealNitro idea of decentralized servers. Helps to balance load. However, the login/userdatabase can still be centralized. Since this information is requested only a few times, and it is a short request, I think it can be centralized.

Congratulations, Eivets, for your work on that "rollback" system. I haven't tried it, but I understood pretty well how you described it. Looks good. (even though I will miss the "diff" feature present in wikis)

Another suggestions would be to add some type of arrow or something (in front of player), pointing to the 3D position of the next/previous modification. I say this because it is really easy to miss the (small) changes on a moderate or complex map.

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#35: Re: ..

by Eivets on 04/29/2007 21:55, refers to #34

"I like the RealNitro idea of decentralized servers. Helps to balance load. However, the login/userdatabase can still be centralized. Since this information is requested only a few times, and it is a short request, I think it can be centralized."

I agree, that it would be easy to decentralize the login servers. All major MMORPG have centralized login servers or at least a centralized database and many shard servers. But if you want to have some kind of money or experience points etc. you need to trust all servers.

"Congratulations, Eivets, for your work on that "rollback" system. I haven't tried it, but I understood pretty well how you described it. Looks good. (even though I will miss the "diff" feature present in wikis)"

Thanks. And yes a diff would be nice but would be slightly difficult ;-)

"Another suggestions would be to add some type of arrow or something (in front of player), pointing to the 3D position of the next/previous modification. I say this because it is really easy to miss the (small) changes on a moderate or complex map."

That should be doable.

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