Latest Sauer Editing - Issues and Lighting Help

by marcpullen on 01/06/2007 05:51, 38 messages, last message: 01/21/2007 01:08, 8831 views, last view: 05/18/2024 06:32

I'm working on a new map with the latest public version of Sauer, and I've found that pushing corners seems to be broken in some areas.

I haven't nailed down how to make it break exactly, but I do a lot of curvy corners, like for rocks or caves. So I usually select the corners of two sets of the smallest cubes to push them a little inward, to make them look rounded.

Sometimes one of the corners won't push if you've also pushed it in another direction.

For example, on a flat floor, pop up some cubes above it, then select the corners and push them down to 1 or 2 clicks above (so they are very thin). Now try selecting the corners of two cubes and push them from the side. One of them won't push.

I found it you pull the top part back up, then push the side in, then push the top down, that the top now won't push down like it used to in all older versions of Sauer.

I'm not using heightmaps, just manual labor corner pushing.

If this doesn't make sense, I can whip up a test map or do a set of screenshot or something.

Also, does anyone have any advice on lighting dark eerie caves? I've tried using a lot of smaller dim blue lights, but they still don't bring out the detail of the caves I have.

For example (these are test shots with very limited lighting):

http://www2.fanaticalproductions.net:8080/temp/screenshot_1.jpg

http://www2.fanaticalproductions.net:8080/temp/screenshot_2.jpg

http://www2.fanaticalproductions.net:8080/temp/screenshot_3.jpg

http://www2.fanaticalproductions.net:8080/temp/screenshot_4.jpg

http://www2.fanaticalproductions.net:8080/temp/screenshot_5.jpg

http://www2.fanaticalproductions.net:8080/temp/screenshot_6.jpg

I'm planning on using a "moon" type light as the sun, so I get some good shadows from that (but blue-ish), but I'm going to have a lot of caves and indoor castle type areas that the moon won't ever light. I really like the subtle lighting, but it hides too much.

Anyway, thoughts and ideas welcomed. :)

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#1: Example

by ethan592 on 01/06/2007 08:09

I suggest you check out the Thor map

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#2: ..

by eihrul on 01/06/2007 09:58

There was an invalid cube bug introduced in the release. This has been fixed in CVS, though.

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#3: as for lighting...

by Aardappel_ on 01/06/2007 13:17

you are probably using weak lights that don't use the entire rgb spectrum... i.e. a blue light should be 4060FF or so, not 203080. The only thing to tweak is the radius and the amount of lights (looks like you could use more).

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#4: corners

by osbios_PlzChangeToPWLogin on 01/06/2007 14:02

Use "/invalidcubeguard 0" to push corners like you want.


2+1 :D

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#5: Cave Lights

by marcpullen on 01/06/2007 19:45

I tried some different stuff for the lighting, I just can't get the caves right.

Have a look here:

http://www2.fanaticalproductions.net:8080/temp/fanatic_test_map.zip (5.1 megs)

It's large because I did a full hard light build on max.

From the player start area, jump down into the hole you are facing to the water, and go into the tunnel. I did a bunch of lights there.

There's one light that is a soft gray/blue just under the water surface, and some gray-ish lights up on the walking areas to bring up the general light level a bit. I'm pretty happy with the building lights tho, those are fairly easy to do.

Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong with the cave lighting?

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#6: strange stuff

by 1st Devoid on 01/06/2007 20:56

About those corners...

First of all, I dont know if we are talking about the same issue, but I noticed something, anyway here I go.
I will explain what I do, in 12 steps, supplemented with screenshots.

1: I make a cube in a decent size:
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/7756/1bu6.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

2: Now I decrease a corner:
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/9588/2jc5.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

3: And then the corner above it:
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8485/3zd8.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

4: I am now doing the same thing all over, just from the other side:
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7153/4ll3.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

5: As above, just the other corner. Notice that this whole side (the blue), will "lap over" the brown side:
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1908/5pq5.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

6: From above you'll see that the edge is nicely rounded, but problems emerge in step 7:
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1079/7mj2.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

7: Now when I change to a smaller cube size and selest a part that I wanna texture:
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/6760/8io1.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

8: I just textured here, notice how the whole thing warped:
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/4496/8jx7.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

9: as above, from another view it is easy to see how the whole thing messed up:
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/2954/9qk6.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

11: another example, im selecting more cubes here:
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/8411/amg0.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

12: again, after texturing the whole thing "warps":
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/6609/bnc0.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

These problems occurs if you use a smaller brush on a big... if you understand.
Like if you made a big cube, you change to a small brush, and select a row (along any axis) with a small brush, and try to decrease it, then it will lock up or warp... well this is hard to explain.

(BTW picture links might fuck up, this is the first time im posting pics on a forum like this)

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#7: ..

by osbios_PlzChangeToPWLogin on 01/06/2007 22:11

Use bigger lights:

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/9854/morelightte0.jpg

In this screen I changed a light from (20 255 255 192) to (100 255 255 192)

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#8: ..

by marcpullen on 01/06/2007 22:52

How did you change or edit the existing light?

The documentation says:

----------------------------------------

entedit type value1 value2 value3 value4

Change the type and attributes of the selected entity. To quickly bring up the entedit command in the console press '.' (default: period). It will come pre-filled with the values of the current entity selection.

----------------------------------------

When I select the light and type in the console:

/entedit light 100 255 255 192

I get "unknown command: entedit"

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#9: ..

by apflstrudl on 01/06/2007 23:09

try it with pressing t and then type /entedit 100 255 255 192

perhaps there's an invisble letter. I somtimes have the same problem when i hit ä ö or ü or some letters that aren't displayed.

entedit is binded on "."

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#10: entset

by osbios_PlzChangeToPWLogin on 01/06/2007 23:22

or use "/entset". ;)

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#11: ..

by marcpullen on 01/07/2007 19:05

Ah, the binding on ".", thanks for that. What a huge time saver!

I think I have the lighting down a little better in my latest version. Still a lot to mess with to get it right, and it looks very different depending on what light mode you use to generate lightmaps. Hard to get it right.

Would also be nice to see an ETA clock on the light generation, especially with long builds. I had a full build run overnight with a light precision of 1, took almost 5 hours.

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#12: Re: ..

by Gilt on 01/07/2007 22:08, refers to #11

the scripts in this thread might also help you with editing ents:
http://cubeengine.com/forum.php4?action=display_thread&thread_id=1190

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#13: Re: corners

by Gilt on 01/07/2007 22:14, refers to #4

If you're going to use "/invalidcubeguard 0", understand that there is a chance that even if the cube looks ok, the collision detection might not work fully; you might be able to pass through parts of the cube. This will happen when the cube is concave.

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#14: Re: strange stuff

by Gilt on 01/07/2007 22:25, refers to #6

Editing a cube using a gridsize that is smaller then said cube will cause the cube to subdivide into smaller cubes. It is a similar concept to 'carving' commands that some quake editors have. If you are familiar with quake editing, one of the basic things they teach you is that you should not carve a brush unless they have a very simple shape. I would advise the same thing here.

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#15: Re: strange stuff

by 1st Devoid on 01/08/2007 00:46, refers to #14

Where can I read more about such?

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#16: Re: strange stuff

by marcpullen on 01/08/2007 04:03, refers to #15

Press the 7 key in edit mode. It will show you how everything is cut up.

If you create a scene in your map that gets really bad FPS, try hitting 7 to see how the cubes are really chopped up.

I remember doing something similar when Quake first came out, where we got to do real 3d map editing. Creating something like a pipe or just cutting a 6 sided hole in the wall would create some really bizarre slices of the brushes. You have to think out some stuff like that and try a different way of putting everything together. Same result (e.g. a pipe), but the brushes cut up into less pieces, hence the scene performs better.

Other things like creating a physical blocking mechanism between large or complex areas helps speed things up too, like the ever so obvious 90 degree hallway between areas. That's more of a vis 'trick'.

Granted the editing I'm doing for my map in this thread is purely for the look and with no regard for performance at all. But still. :)

Oh, and I just did another build of my map with loads more detail and lighting, but I did a light detail level of 1 (one). The resulting file was almost 30 megs! But damn those ultra sharp shadows look so very sexy.

And for reference, with a quick light build on the highest level (255), the resulting file is 492kb. So that's like 29 megs worth of light info in the full build.

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#17: I agree...

by Aardappel_ on 01/08/2007 16:59

to fix the caves, you're going to have to use larger lights. Unlike Cube, large lights in sauer are GOOD, more chance of nice shadows.

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#18: ..

by marcpullen on 01/08/2007 20:03

How does this build look for lighting?

http://www2.fanaticalproductions.net:8080/temp/fanatic_test_map_2.zip (1.5 megs)

I did the 8x light build at 25, shadows are fairly soft.

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#19: Re: ..

by Aardappel_ on 01/08/2007 23:27, refers to #18

better, but you're still using half intensity lights.

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#20: Re: ..

by kurtis84 on 01/09/2007 00:33, refers to #19

Nice looking terrain fanatic! Lighting looks pretty good I thought. I would use a bit more brightness from the torches, maybe move the light ents slightly above the torches, so the shadow from the torches isn't so large. Using 80 as a light radius seems too small to me, I would use at least 128...it'll just give you more shadows, and then you won't need to place light ents in the middle of the rooms. Those filler lights just kill the shadows from all that detail.

I really like the map so far. You've taken to a very small grid size on that terrain...you have my respect!

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