Linux vs. Windows

by Necrolin on 12/19/2006 13:19, 42 messages, last message: 12/21/2006 21:39, 12548 views, last view: 05/18/2024 23:04, closed on 12/22/2006 00:55

I\'ve got the strangest little problem. I\'ve got a dual boot machine with Ubuntu Linux and Windows XP SP2 running on it. If I boot into Windows, the default config on a fresh install of Sauerbraten gives me 9 fps. The default config on Linux gives me 140 fps!!!! What gives?

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#3: ..

by m3ep on 12/19/2006 14:36

Maybe your Linux-Drivers are so terribly bad that they dont support shaders and stuff like that (performance lurking stuff).
Maybe tell more about your config: CPU, GFX-Chip (ATi?).
Usually its almost impossible to set up your GFX-Card on Linux - so maybe you got 32xFSAA and 16xAF turned on on Windows :D

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#4: Re: ..

by Boggel on 12/19/2006 15:52, refers to #1

i find that under linux + nvidia there is at least 20% performance increase, but with ATi there is at least a 20% performance decrease. I find ATi shabby all round, even with their windows drivers.

What card ya got?

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#5: ..

by osbios_PlzChangeToPWLogin on 12/19/2006 17:57

I have my old G4MX440 and Cube2 is on xubuntu over 100%(!) faster then on XP.
I think there is something wrong with DirectX. (Do this affect OGL?)
But older Cube2 Versions are at last 10-20% faster on linux.

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#6: Re: ..

by PunDit@work on 12/19/2006 19:20, refers to #4

With my ATI Radeon X600(Laptop) I get about 20% Less performance in Linux (SuSE 10.1) then with Windows XP on the same hardware.

I hate running Windows.

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#7: ..

by Grogan on 12/19/2006 20:43

I'm another who gets better performance in gaming under Linux with Nvidia than the same hardware under Windows, with latest Nvidia drivers in both OSes. Not Sauerbraten specific, but any of the games I play. I did a test install of XP not long ago, and I have a fat assed Vista install for testing.

I'm not sure on this, but I suspect it's because the driver in Windows does more antialiasing and stuff which might explain the very significant difference.

Now, that said, I recently upgraded from an Nvidia 5500 to a 6600 and Sauerbraten was the game that benefited most from the relatively minor upgrade due to better shader implementation. We're talking 10 times the frame rate with shaderdetail 3. I previously had to reduce that. For example, in deathtech the difference is 8 FPS with the old card, and around 80 FPS with the new. I wasn't expecting that.

I just love Sauerbraten to death, now.

We're on an older system here... pentium4 2 GHz with the intel 845 chipset, which has slow buses and AGP 4x.

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#8: Re: ..

by Passa on 12/19/2006 23:12, refers to #7

NOTE: There is NO PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LINUX AND WINDOWS IN GAMES. Just because Linuxers don't keep their Windows install looked after doesn't mean that Windows is slower for games. It probably all comes down to performance settings, such as Nvidia's quite general image quality setting.

Anyway, now that I've insulted all Linux users so that they don't turn this into a "LINUX IS FASTERRR IN GAMESZZ LOL FOR TEH 3 GAMES IT HASZ" thread, lets actually discuss this guys problem? Necrolin, you need to post some specs as well then if you've got the latest Nvidia drivers installed. Are you running SP2? What settings have you got enabled in the Nvidia control panel? Are shaders disabled on your Linux install of Sauerbraten, but not the Windows one?

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#9: ..

by 1veedo on 12/20/2006 00:21

The guy's problem can be fixed if he formats his drive and reinstalls Windows.


Technically speaking the X server is slower than the windows window system (no pun). However, in practice, Linux (and especially FreeBSD) can reach upwards of 30%+ performance boosts as compared to Windows running on the same hardware <i>for a fresh install</i> (ie when Windows is running fastest). This is largely a network performance boost -- ie apache2 vs WSS for servers. This is why most servers run Linux and why sauerbraten (and enemy-territory/bzflag/etc) servers suck ass running on Windows machines.

However, this is not the case for gamming. Unlike what you said, Passa, Linux is actually <b>slower</b> than Windows for gamming. This is not because of directX vs opengl; they are both roughly the same performance-wise.

As you can see here, http://www.linuxhardware.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/12/1725246 , Windows can be 20~36% faster than Linux running something like Doom3. It's relevant to point out this isn't an actual comparison of Doom3 but some sort of demo trailer thing.

Also this is flawed because they used 32bit Windows and 64bit Linux. Despite what you'd think, running 64bit can actually slow you down because it takes up more memory. Doom3 and Unreal Tournament show performance decreases in 64bit. Put simply: there was less RAM (relative per OS) for Doom3 to play with in Linux than Windows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64-bit

If you have enough RAM though, 64 bit is awesome. It's not like 32 is better than 64.

This isn't the only study that has found similar results though. I saw one showing ~24% boosts for Windows.

It can change very quickly though after you've ran Windows for a while. I'm not saying anything new when I tell you Windows progressively get slower and slower. I have a Windows computer that cycles roughly every 10 months; we format it! We just formated like the beginning of Dec, last time it was the end of January. Running a game on a "used" Windows computer would probably result in slower performance than Linux. So for everyone who's claiming Linux runs sauerbraten better, you should probably reinstall Windows (or get rid of Windows completely :). Deepfreez will prolong the life of a Windows computer to an extent but not even this can save you (evil laugh).

Sorry guys, I use Linux myself, but on a technical basis, Windows is faster graphics-wise. Linux has all the goodies though :)

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#10: Re: ..

by Grogan on 12/20/2006 03:00, refers to #8

Passa said:

"NOTE: There is NO PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LINUX AND WINDOWS IN GAMES. Just because Linuxers don't keep their Windows install looked after doesn't mean that Windows is slower for games. It probably all comes down to performance settings, such as Nvidia's quite general image quality setting."

I would not say there is no difference, but it's more drivers than the OS itself.

A fresh install of XP with all updates and optimal drivers (and nothing else, no antivirus software or anything) couldn't really be in better shape. I turn off unnecessary GUI bloat and only have minimal services running as well. Vista is a joke, let's just forget about that for now. I would not consider it a good OS for gaming. I don't care how much processing power and RAM you have, you didn't buy it to squander on operating system overhead.

I go into the Nvidia control panel and turn off expensive things like antialiasing and still come up short. Things look different, even though that stuff is disabled I still think it's doing a little more of it in Windows. More hard edges and stuff in Linux, but faster frame rates. I prefer the way things look too, despite a few more jagged diagonal lines and stuff.

Nvidia in Linux really is good.

Note: I am quite intimate with Windows, in fact it's my profession. I just don't prefer it for myself, for various reasons. Games are damned important to me nowadays, but not my primary usage.

Now, I used to have ATI cards and had to keep a Windows install around BECAUSE performance was so much better for games. I was certainly never happy with ATI under Linux. The times I tried their proprietary Linux drivers on my Radeon 9200 were a farce too. Neither cube, nor sauerbraten (at the time), nor even quake 3 displayed correctly. UT2004 was the only one I had that I would say worked "great".

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#11: ..

by Grogan on 12/20/2006 03:08

Wish I'd have read my post over, I should clarify that I don't mean that a dramatic difference, like the performance cited here in Necrolin's original question, is normal. Something is definitely wrong somewhere on the Windows system. I don't mean to derail this in any way.

I too would probably start with the settings in the Nvidia control panel on the Windows system.

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#12: ..

by 1veedo on 12/20/2006 03:13

If we're comparing fresh Windows installs w/ nvidia, or even just Windows installs that still "work," the performance difference isn't that noticeable. No matter what statistics you bring up.

Necrolin here just has a install that doesn't "work" (assuming if what he said is correct and everything is set up properly). This is and of itself is a pitfall of Windows though.

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#13: Re: ..

by Passa on 12/20/2006 06:15, refers to #12

It could just simply be his Sauerbraten configuration you know..

And yes, Vista is going to kill Windows gaming.. unless you have 4GB of RAM and SLI 8800GTX system, but then again, the same configuration under Windows XP would run way faster. In recent tests PC User found Battlefield 2 performance under Vista drop 50% from XP, similar results for other games too..

Anyway, enough off topic already, none of the differences you've mentioned would result in Sauerbraten getting 140FPS on Linux and 9FPS on Windows.

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#14: ..

by SanHolo on 12/20/2006 08:47

As a sidenote, I tested sauerbraten on my Mac with Mac OS X 10.4.8 (current) and an early beta of 10.5 (WWDC). Even that early beta of 10.5 gives a 5 - 10% increase in fps, measured with exactly the same useraccount and the same sauerbraten installation.

Would be interesting to install Ubuntu Edgy and see how it compares...

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#15: ..

by Drakas on 12/20/2006 09:50

Well, one thing is that, really, people whine that Linux is better cause "Windows sucks". Windows sucks for them because it gets viruses, crashes all the time and simply pisses people off. However, this has a very little to do with Microsoft. Only the thing is that these people don't know how to use Windows, they just try to tear it apart - they use IE, they download random software off the net, they just do all kinda of crap and expect the system to perform good. Well, after this - the system is f*cked (thats why admins hate it!), and users have done it themselves! I can't stand using somebody else's Windows PC because it simply gets too laggy and there is hardly a way to actually clean it all up because of the system design!


And when going to GNU/Linux systems, they only get nicer because you can try to tear them apart as much as you want, get random software off the net - and everything is easily restorable! The main thing with GNU systems is that they simply allow multiple user accounts and rarely have root access used by a usual user. If the user gets some kind of problems with the computer, it is very easy to create a new account, really! So the system is back at full speed!

So why does it seem to some people that Windows is slower? Simply, Windows is a larger OS. Overall, Windows simply is not as efficient as using the hard drive and other resources. When going to 3D graphics, really, there should be no difference unless the drivers are bad! None of the 3D code is read while rendering from the hard drive, it is all done with the GPU and partially with the CPU. So the system simply won't intefer with this.

Well, don't give statistics to us unless you have fresh installs.

"140FPS on Linux and 9FPS on Windows" < Well, it's kinda obvious, isn't it? this is 15 times less FPS rate on Windows. Isn't it obvious? You have bad drivers. Your configuration is bad. You don't know how to use Windows? :-)

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#16: ..

by SanHolo on 12/20/2006 10:22

The problem with Windows is that Microsoft creates ist OS for a user which does not exist in reality.

They put animated dogs on the screen while a search is performed and a million stupid dialogs tell you what is happening; this is obviously to aid the non-geek computer user.
But then again, you have to be an IT nerd to not fuck up the system by actually using it.

Windows could be good, and maybe you can make it good, but out of the box, it isn't, and on most managed systems, it isn't.

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#17: Re: ..

by sinsky on 12/20/2006 14:49, refers to #16

The Windows user exists. He doesn't usually care about windows, dogs and dialogs. The Windows user wants to use the software everyone else uses, to make sure his stuff runs on everyone else's computers. Linux users are somehow obsessed with Linux and performance, while Windows users are obsessed with their stuff, not Windows itself. Imagine what will happen if we get cheap, super-fast computers tomorrow. Well Windows and "Cool Pefrormance OS" on another scale, maybe, but whatever survives from the current software, will not be on performance basis.

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#18: Re: ..

by SanHolo on 12/20/2006 16:29, refers to #17

I know that this Windows user exists. He makes most probably up for the biggest marketshare amongst all compter users. However, this Windows user cannot use his Windows without getting spyware, trojans and/or becoming part of a botnet. And THAT is what Microsoft is doing wrong.

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#19: Re: ..

by Boggel-doesnt-like-replacing-cookies on 12/20/2006 18:08, refers to #9

You're wrong!

I had the game nexuz (or whatever the hell) and with windows i would get around 60 fps (yes with vsync off). with linux i get 100 (also with any kind of vsync off).

Thats a cold hard fact. I personally use both OSs and i know the one i prefer for regular use. The only thing that holds linux back is 3rd party support, although even this is getting better.

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#20: ..

by Boggel-doesnt-like-replacing-cookies on 12/20/2006 18:11

ps: you probably have an ATi card. the linux drivers for them suck. So its not linux's fault, its just the ATi drivers.

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#21: ..

by 1veedo on 12/20/2006 22:05

[quote=Drakas]However, this has a very little to do with Microsoft.[/quote]

You dont seem to understand the problem with Windows then. If Windows were better then it wouldn't get viruses, crash, nor piss people off. These are the symptoms of underlying problems that Microsoft needs to fix.

[quote]Only the thing is that these people don't know how to use Windows, they just try to tear it apart - they use IE, they download random software off the net, they just do all kinda of crap and expect the system to perform good. Well, after this - the system is f*cked (thats why admins hate it!), and users have done it themselves![/quote]

The difference here is that Linux wont get fucked up no matter how stupid the user is. You actually have to [i]try[/i] to screw up a Linux computer. On Windows, you have to try in order to NOT screw things up. See the difference? Why put in effort to not fuck things up when you can put in no effort and everything works fine?

[quote]If the user gets some kind of problems with the computer, it is very easy to create a new account, really! So the system is back at full speed![/quote]

The only thing I can say is..wow. This is not how things work. Maybe if you understood Linux you could talk about it a little better. The difference between Windows and Linux users is that most Linux users have extensive knowledge about Windows and Linux while most Windows people usually don't even understand Windows. Linux users are usually "nerds," maybe not socially, but they understand a lot about computers.

[quote=Boggel-doesnt-like-replacing-cookies]The only thing that holds linux back is 3rd party support, although even this is getting better.[/quote]

1) Yes, Linux has third party support. You can pay for it -- Suse, Ubuntu, Red Hat, etc.
2) Linux doesn't need third party support for the end user (as compared to a company). You can easily ask for and get help.


Just an FYI to I think two people claiming they have the same if the drivers are good, did you not read post #9? The X server is SLOWER than Windows. The only way a Windows game is showing slower FPS is if the Windows install is very old -- in which case the poster needs to reinstall Windows. There could of course be odd games that for whatever reason run faster, and maybe sauerbraten is one of them, but I dobt it.

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#22: Re: ..

by Pxtl on 12/20/2006 22:16, refers to #21

The problem is that, due to difficult configuration, incomplete hardware support, different packaging systems, and hobby-driven applications, Linux doesn't just work the way Windows does.

If I have a device I need to work on windows, I just google the device name, "driver", and windows version and I download it.

If I'm on Linux, it's never that easy. I still can't get my voodoo2 to do anything on my legacy box - and the voodoo2 was the single most popular video accelerator of it's generation - and I was using Xubuntu, which is ostensibly a distro for legacy support (never mind it bundles with a painful list of openGL screensavers that will make your computer seize up if you're actually using a machine old enough to require Xubuntu).

Things just work in windows. They may be insecure and cumbersome, but they always work. Conversely, doing anything in Linux involves a lengthy research process and begging the command-line to do what you want.

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