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17 day old game breaker on Quadropolis!

by Zamwa on 02/22/2014 20:20, 20 messages, last message: 03/12/2014 01:04, 2263 views, last view: 05/31/2020 13:18

Some of you know there is a mod on quadropolis called SauerX: Team Kill Proof. This mod removes teammate killing from the code.
No doubt it can put enemy and friendly players at a disadvantage. Players with the mod will not get penalty scores while other Players without it do.

My opinion of it being implemented widespread into a next official release is it will be damaging to gameplay.
Avoid hitting teammates is a part of adrenaline action gameplay to not hit teammates.

What other FPS games you know work great with a none-teamkill mod and still have a large active player base to speak of?!

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#1: ..

by raz on 02/23/2014 11:50

there are lots of fps games that disallow team damage.

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#2: Re: ..

by Zamwa on 02/23/2014 13:48, refers to #1

I don't recommend you go around team killing to find lots! How many players lost there lives for you to find out... just kidding! X") Just one you remember will work!

Now that I remember Battlefield 2 Bad Company had a teammate tank ordnance blast immunity! A rather transparent mod and could work well with rockets on sauerbraten as reduced damage for teams!

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#3: ..

by eihrul on 02/23/2014 16:21

Part of the skill of the game is avoiding shooting your teammates, and learning how to aim in general.

Using source code mods to prevent hitting teammates is cheating.

I don't really care what other games disallow team damage, they're not Sauer.

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#4: Re: ..

by suicizer01 on 02/23/2014 18:25, refers to #3

As one of the gods of Cube has spoken, content like this (cheats or hacks) won't be allowed on Quadropolis anymore.

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#5: ..

by Zamwa on 02/23/2014 19:40

More changes in the code SauerX could be forked into a whole new game!

Food for thought!

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#6: Just some notes

by chasester on 02/23/2014 23:06

Well i didn't realize that a feature like this would create such a pandemic.

I do not plan on forking, i don't think that this feature is that much of a change to the game play, nor do i have the time, to create a game play and or content to support my own branch of the game.

This "team kill proof" feature, is only allowed because the sauer servers are written so poorly. Allowing a client to tell the server who they have hit (or not hit) is a very bad practice. There is no verification, or checking done on the servers part to make sure that the player is sending valid information across, or even periodic checking (ray test) to make sure people don't cheat.

As far as the feature itself. It really doesn't benefit the user persay. What it does is stops a user from accidentally killing his teammate. Even without the feature, the way the game play works it does not punish the attacker at all. If a player hit a teammate (whether he is aiming for another player or not) there are no disadvantages directly. Personally I see this as poor gameplay.

I feel that a user when they die, should be able to say "this is why i died". Basically they should be able to see a mistake they made. Dying randomly or archaically, by circumstances that are not your fault, or you could not stop. Is very frustrating to the player.


This really only affect regen capture mode (maybe even eff ctf [if people still play that]) so i will go through the reasons i believe that in this game that tking should be not allowed. Also i will show why some games can allow teamkilling, and it makes sense.

In capture mode, you spawn at a random location (random player start) this is [as far as i can remember) not based on which capture points you own, or any other game variables. So one can spawn literally on a rocket exploding and start at a major health and armour deficit.

Now if we are to create our gameplay based on the principle that players should be able to trace back a mistake they made, (not some random unlucky streak) then we would have to conclude that spawning on a rocket is something that we should try to avoid, (as a normal or usual occurrence).

Now of course we can't stop all unluckiness in the game. So the big question is, how often do players spawn on rocket, and i would say this is probably a very low occurrence, and so this is not really an issue. Maybe 1 in every 5 kills you may take some damage on spawn (or within the first 3 seconds) but this honestly is not an issue most of the time (unless the map is grossly overpopulated).

So what about team killing (or team damage). Is this something that a player can avoid? Is it something that occurs often? Is it something that frustrates people? Is it something that stops players from spamming?

In most cases i would say that it is not something that can be avoided. What i notice from playing capture mode, is that one enemy drops down or sneaks in to a group of players around a base (normally that are still gathering armour) and sits there shooting and dodging. Leting the teammates kill each other, and finishing off the one or two people lucky enough to make it out. This puts the defence on a great disadvantage. They do not get healed during the fight, they do not get ammo. And any damage they do to the enemy they are also doing to each other.

I personally find this extremely frustrating especially if i come into the battle right after spawning and have 30 or < green armour, and little to no ammo. The problem in my opinion is that there are no direct consequences for spamming rockets. Basically what you are saying is, if you spam rockets at this area, you are "hurting" your team. But does that directly affect the player. No, it doesn't, your saying if i spam then someone else pays the price. This can be extremely frustrating for the victim were as the actor gets off scott free. And even if the person is skilled enough to not kill his teammate during one of these battles , still the teammate is suffered to stand around the base for a longer time, before he can be fully armoured and healthed.

Even with a very skilled player, that takes careful shots, He can still miss, they are projectile base weapons there is always room for error, so this really doesn't make people shoot more carefully it actually makes people not care, and spam there rockets and grenades. Which doesn't help the problem at all.

And the victim who is being shot with the team rocket, not only now has to dodge the damage that the enemy(es) are dishing out, but also the projectiles of his teammates. The victim, no matter how he positions himself, can not avoid a sudden attack from the enemy nor can he position himself in such a way to avoid getting hit by spamming rockets (or even carefully placed ones. Further more, the play needs (to be competitive) to stand around these death traps (for about 8 to 10 seconds).

In other games such as counter-strike there is teamkilling allow. But this is because the game play is different. First it is an arena based game (meaning you die you die), Second it is a one objective game (there is one thing your team is trying to accomplish [in the most popular modes]). Third there are no rockets (only grenades - which have a lower explosion radius and cost money (money is given based on skill/kills).

Referencing other games saying that tking is good or bad, strictly because it works in that game doesn't fix or even explain why it works in this game. This game is more quake based. In quake live there is tking but there are no capture like modes (which seems to be the only time that teamkilling breaks game play). In other modes it is extremely rare to be shot by a teammate, and normally is not detrimental to the rest of that life. And turning it off (allowing tking prevention) would not alter the gameplay at all.

So my personally thoughts:

The reason that i have gathered that most people do not like this idea, is spam abuse. And this seems like this would greatly change gameplay (if it were added to an official release) But would this gameplay change be bad, and i would say no. I would say that this would require people to be more defencive minded. That one player wouldnt be able to take over a base by themselves. This would change the people approach the game mode, and it would provide a better game play over all.

People also say that people would start (like in dirtanddust, where the rockets are on the far roof shooting at the rifle base [the mountain wall's base -> the derelict base]) spamming rockets at enemy bases with no regard for allies or enemies. But don't people do that already. So this is not stopping anything. Any competent player would sit in the one spot that the rockets cant touch and then sneak shot the rocket person a few times (because this person is most likely standing still). This does not change much of the game play, accept now when the rocket spammers teammate tries to capture, hes not gonna get kill by the noobs rocket spam. Yes this changes game play slightly. But then again any competent player would stand in the one spot where rockets can't hit so he doesn't get tked.

If the development wants to prevent wants to stop spamming, writing a simple reloading system will easily stop spamming of weapons. This will force players to shoot wisely, and severely punish THEM (not there teammates) if they try to spam their weapon. With the instituted gameplay style in this game, it seems not to make any sense why tking is allowed. This seems to break gameplay, and hurt the overall fun of the game (for regen capture mode).

chasester


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#7: OOPs

by chasester on 02/23/2014 23:19

damn i wish there was an edit button

1 in 50 not 5**


And i apologize in advance for the poor grammar i figured i could edit it as i read it (like i can on quad).

chasester

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#8: ..

by Papriko on 02/23/2014 23:25

1. When you accidentally kill a teammate, you say sorry and everyone's fine.

2. There IS a punishment for teamkilling, at least in deathmatches, since you get a frag less, similar to a suicide. Some servers provide even more punishment, such as kicking after N teamkills (to determine between deliberately TKing and accidents), but as I said: that is done SERVERside, so it influences everyone equally.

3. The bigger problem with that feature is that people can be EVEN LESS careful now. People keep spamming explosives a lot anyways. In some public effic games, you can do barely anything because the half map is covered in a soft orange and turquoise haze. Now shit is getting even worse, because, well, you do not need to look for teammates anymore. You just fire fire fire, blast out all the ammo you have, after a while you might hit something. Before you really run outta ammo, you die anyways or killed everything so you can regen by your base again.
This already happens and your stupid hack will make it worse.

4. eihrul said no.

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#9: ..

by Papriko on 02/23/2014 23:36

You know what? Actually forget what I said before, I am for your idea. And I think we should go even a step further.
Why don't we implement aimbots into sauer by default? It can always happen that you make a mistake and not hit someone you wanted to hit. Then it can correct the mistake for you! People already hit each other anyways, so it would not make much of a difference if we made it a default feature.
Same for godmode. Someone might shoot you, although you totally did not want to get shot. Something like that could happen all the time. Just get a nifty little support for your client which corrects those mistakes.

Or in other words: Quasimodo for everyone!

[/sarcasm]

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#10: Re: Just some notes

by suicizer01 on 02/23/2014 23:41, refers to #6

"In capture mode... health and armour deficit."

You spawn on a playerstart near your own base, unless you have no base which makes you spawn at a random spawn point.

"Now of course... (unless the map is grossly overpopulated)."
Maps nowadays are grossly overpopulated.
Most maps were made to play with a max. off 8 vs 8 (as like back when ctf and capture started), but it happens to be 12 vs 12 now. So rather blame that on the server gui and the admins hosting those servers.
Being hit by a rocket while spawning is often the case of a bad place playerstart. I would advice every mapper which tries to create a map with (regen)capture set as gamemode, to read the next guide:
http://quadropolis.us/guides/gameplay_entity

"In most cases... doing to each other."
Yet again, I'll refer to the guide I recently published as the position of the base has certain issues;
http://quadropolis.us/guides/gameplay_entity


I personally find... armoured and healthed."
What you are basically saying is capture should decrease the points of a team which makes teamkills. This sounds fair to me.

"Referencing other games... gameplay at all."
Wut? There certainly is a capture-like mode in Quake(Live) and even in Open Arena (called Domination at both games).
However, only Team Deathmatch knows team killing by weapons in Quake Live (however, you can telefrag or use powerups to do harm your allies at all modes).
But it eventually is a server side option. They can turn it on or off at both games.

Personally, I would rather see damage to teammates reduced than fully allowed or disallowed (just like self-damage of rockets and grenades).
I would also like to see teamkills be decremented from the score of the team which does so.
Both of them are just some wishes and toughts...

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#11: Re: Just some notes

by chasester on 02/24/2014 01:59, refers to #10

@Papriko
again i said consequences not punishment, 2 different things :P and i also said direct consequences to the player (not to the team) if i spam my guns im not gonna see my lack of skill as me losing the match for my team. I most likely will blame it on something else :) so they will never learn and then you will have them spamming for the rest of there life :) not helping any one :P

Sadly i could write an aimbot and god mod in about 10 lines each.

But equating a change in gameplay to aim botting is a bit of an extreme. There are hundred of games (including one of the most popular pc games [tf2]) that do not allow tking. So proposing the idea is not equivalent of aim botting thats is a lil of an unfair equation, dont you think?

This is very similar to adding everyone positions to the compass it gives you a small advantage in very very very select cases (and really one changes gameplay in one mode).

@suicizer
I think you took about 80% of your quotes out of context. Please if you are going to quote my post include at least one sentence if not 2 or three, so we all know where you pulling it from and can reference it ourselfs.

@Maps being grossly overpopulated

Seems fishy to me. I went through a few (older and newer maps) they ranged from 5 - 8 capture points (i only considered the ones that actually get played not the ones that are ctf/cap hybrids). So if we do the simple math if we count there being 7 cap point divided by 16-21 players (saying that 12v12 is impossible because the capture server only allows 21 players :) then we have about 2.3-3 players per capture point (assuming they get relitively evenly spread out (wich normally is the case. This seems pretty uncrowded to me.

@"Being hit by a rocket while spawning is often the case of a bad place playerstart. I would advice every mapper which tries to create a map with (regen)capture set as gamemode, to read the next guide:"

I would say that bad maps dont make it into the release, and i would further say that i never said that this was something that needed fixed. I was using this as a guide, to prove my point. I said quote unqote:
"Now of course we can't stop all unluckiness in the game. So the big question is, how often do players spawn on rocket, and i would say this is probably a very low occurrence, and so this is not really an issue."

@"In most cases... doing to each other."
I honestly have no clue where you pulled this out of (Maybe out of your ...) so i really cant retort this.

@subtracting team points to teams that team kill
Again your quote makes no sense nor did i say anything of the sort. I think that also would be bad, you need a conequence that directly effects the attacker (not his team). Like for example in conter strike, if i accidently kill a teammate, he is out for that round (in most modes or all dont remember). Hes not there to help me. If i just damage him, thats less damage he can absorb, that could be aimed at me. So it is a very direct concequence. (Also they have reloading to stop spamming).

@quake live and my errors
never played i was relying on google (it failed me). Either way I do agree that reducing the team and even self damage would be a good idea, but then again that is something that only a server can do :)


chasester

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#12: Re: Just some notes

by suicizer01 on 02/24/2014 06:28, refers to #11

Read the guide and you will understand.

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#13: Re: Just some notes

by suicizer01 on 02/24/2014 12:31, refers to #11

There certainly are some maps which have bad spawn points even while they made it into the release.
Perhaps our beloved developer hasn't checked thar good enough before inclusion, but don't blsme him. Rather blame the mapper instead for publishing such work. We can't ask Eihrul or Nieb to look at every single entity on every new included map.

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#14: Re: Just some notes

by Zamwa on 02/24/2014 17:48, refers to #6

So your openly admitting spamming abuse of weapons is a problem and that reducing the rate of weapon fire will somehow fix it?! Sounds like to Me players will get pissed if they have a changing rate of fire compounding the problem you assumed would be fixed!

Anyway you put it your mod would still leave a broken game to fix in an official release!

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#15: Re: Just some notes

by chasester on 02/24/2014 20:01, refers to #14

No i didn't suggest changing the rate of fire, That woul just slow down game play. I suggested adding a reloading system. This would give players a limited amount of shot till they have to wait to reload. This would force players to shoot wisely and not run from on battle to the next spamming rockets,grenades or what ever along the way. This is the way that most games handle anti spamming :) just a suggestion.

chasester

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#16: Re: Just some notes

by Zamwa on 02/24/2014 21:26, refers to #15

That's a good idea! Things like a reloading model animation with a ammo cartridge model would help the gameplay feel smooth! The other parts of your mod are a nice addition to the game! Shame your not going to make your own game! I think it would've been awesome if you had developed your own game with all the cool stuff that didn't make it into sauerbraten!

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#17: Re: Just some notes

by chasester on 02/25/2014 04:40, refers to #16

I would love to develop my own game, but i would need a team, and a modeler :P (mostly a modeler).

Besides its a lot of work even if you start from a very well rounded engine. Plus If i were to develop a game it would be less of a fast pace game play style (and probably class based). I have some ideas floating around but they would take a lot of programing, and a lot of art. Which only one of which i can do one of :)

But maybe at some point it will happen but for now ill stick with simple mods :)

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#18: Re: Just some notes

by Pyccna on 02/25/2014 05:50, refers to #17

-whistles-
I'm totally not a modeler. <_<

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#19: Re: Just some notes

by AbusBambus on 03/10/2014 22:07, refers to #6

@chasester

DUDE.

Do you even read your own posts? What you just explained could basically have been said in just a few sentences.

tl;dr

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#20: Re: Just some notes

by chasester on 03/12/2014 01:04, refers to #19

im sure i could have simplified it, but it may have confused some people, so i was making sure to be clear and concise because sometimes people misunderstand what i'm stating.

And of course i read my own posts.

chasester

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